Are you a virgin?

[shy ♡]

Calm down! I'm pretty sure that most of the people who've even mentioned that in this thread, myself included, are gay (or something else Quiltbaggy), and hence were joking about it.

"I'm gay so it's totally okay to be homophobic!"

No. :| You may have indeed been joking about it, I don't doubt you were, but it's still homophobic. People joke about rape and that doesn't make it any lighter of a subject.

 

[Murkrow]

EDIT: OH AND WTF IS A GAY ACCENT? >| ARG what is with all this homophobia and generalizing and uhg! *kicks something*

You think that's homophobic?

There's a gay guy in my school who I hang around with sometimes, because nobody else will go near him. And because of that, people have started to avoid walking past me in the corridor so they don't catch his gay.

 

[Zeph]

"I'm gay so it's totally okay to be homophobic!"

No. :| You may have indeed been joking about it, I don't doubt you were, but it's still homophobic. People joke about rape and that doesn't make it any lighter of a subject.

I didn't say it was 'totally okay to be homophobic', did I? Nor did any of us? Also, I fail to see how somebody can be actually homophobic if they themselves are, you know, Quiltbag. Unless they had horrible self-esteem issues and hated the fact that they were, I dunno? It was nothing more than a tiny joke, just light humour, which nobody took offence to, and wasn't intended to be malicious towards anybody.

(Also I barely contributed towards it! Unless you're using 'you' in the plural sense.)

 

[shy ♡]

You think that's homophobic?

There's a gay guy in my school who I hang around with sometimes, because nobody else will go near him. And because of that, people have started to avoid walking past me in the corridor so they don't catch his gay.

That is terrible but not really related to what I'm saying. :v Although I'm glad you are his friend because people need friends when they are ostracized like that.

I didn't say it was 'totally okay to be homophobic', did I? Nor did any of us? Also, I fail to see how somebody can be actually homophobic if they themselves are, you know, Quiltbag. Unless they had horrible self-esteem issues and hated the fact that they were, I dunno? It was nothing more than a tiny joke, just light humour, which nobody took offence to, and wasn't intended to be malicious towards anybody.

(Also I barely contributed towards it! Unless you're using 'you' in the plural sense.)

Um what. Yes you can be homophobic when you are queer. Obviously. What. Here is an example, albeit extreme. But there is rampant homophobia, transphobia, etc. within the queer community and to think that just because someone is queer that they won't be phobic of other queers for magical queer reasons is naive.

Tiny jokes like that, while they appear small, lead to and mask larger things. I'll link you to this, while it is on a different subject, it illustrates my point. On rape culture, which often goes unnoticed. The same works in homophobic culture. And this is what leads to it.

Also yes I was using 'you' in a general sense.

 

[Zeph]

Um what. Yes you can be homophobic when you are queer. Obviously. What. Here is an example, albeit extreme. But there is rampant homophobia, transphobia, etc. within the queer community and to think that just because someone is queer that they won't be phobic of other queers for magical queer reasons is naive.

...Okay, but, you know, was this really particularly extreme? Just... Nobody here is actually saying these things with intent to harm or insult anybody else.

Also, I'd like to point out another example of where, following what you're saying, members of a minority should not be allowed to make light-hearted humour about themselves. I have a good friend who is quite a devour Christian, but he quite comfortably and quite frequently makes jokes (occasionally rather inappropriate ones, too) about himself as a Christian, the religion itself, and God and Jesus and such. Should that also be frowned upon? Should he, and we, apparently not be allowed to make casual amusement by poking fun at ourselves because of a part of our lifestyle?

EDIT: Incidentally, isn't it a bit of a long stretch to compare 'gay accent' to 'rape joke'?

EDITAGAIN: I'd also like to agree with opal about the whole gay/camp thing! That's one of the things that annoys me the most about jokes such as this.

 

[opaltiger]

Again, why is it jumping the gun when someone says they are asexual but not when they say they're gay or straight or bi or anything? Do you think that, for some reason, it takes more self awareness to know you're not attracted to someone than to know you are?

Not to say I necessarily agree, but identifying as some sexual orientation (other than asexuality) or another depends on being attracted to certain people (we might characterise this as 'positive') whereas identifying as asexual depends on not being attracted to people ('negative'). It is much, much more difficult to establish a negative than to establish a positive, because "I have not yet met someone I am attracted to" and "I am not attracted to people at all" strike me as very difficult to tell apart. I don't know, maybe they aren't? Of course I don't know what it's like, but that goes both ways.

That said I think identifying as anything before you're out of puberty is rather silly and would prefer everyone just stopped talking about sexual orientation period.

No. :| You may have indeed been joking about it, I don't doubt you were, but it's still homophobic. People joke about rape and that doesn't make it any lighter of a subject.

While I agree in principle (in this context, especially; perpetuating the use of 'gay' to be synonymous with 'camp' is not helping, guys) I think you're wrong to equate this sort of thing with people making rape jokes, because it is not (in most cases) rape victims who make rape jokes.

You think that's homophobic?

There's a gay guy in my school who I hang around with sometimes, because nobody else will go near him. And because of that, people have started to avoid walking past me in the corridor so they don't catch his gay.

Quoting a case of extreme homophobia does not make a more minor incident any less homophobic.

Also, Zephyrous Castform: your analogy fails, because Christians are not (contrary to popular belief) a persecuted minority.

Tiny jokes like that, while they appear small, lead to and mask larger things. I'll link you to this, while it is on a different subject, it illustrates my point. On rape culture, which often goes unnoticed. The same works in homophobic culture. And this is what leads to it.

This is a point that far too few people seem to understand. Also, here is another excellent resource for people who deny that we live in a rape culture.

 

[Murkrow]

Quoting a case of extreme homophobia does not make a more minor incident any less homophobic.

I know I was just saying :(

 

[Zeph]

Also, Zephyrous Castform: your analogy fails, because Christians are not (contrary to popular belief) a persecuted minority.

This is a fair point. But what if he were, say, Muslim? I'm pretty sure Muslims are generally persecuted.

 

[shy ♡]

...Okay, but, you know, was this really particularly extreme? Just... Nobody here is actually saying these things with intent to harm or insult anybody else.

Also, I'd like to point out another example of where, following what you're saying, members of a minority should not be allowed to make light-hearted humour about themselves. I have a good friend who is quite a devour Christian, but he quite comfortably and quite frequently makes jokes (occasionally rather inappropriate ones, too) about himself as a Christian, the religion itself, and God and Jesus and such. Should that also be frowned upon? Should he, and we, apparently not be allowed to make casual amusement by poking fun at ourselves because of a part of our lifestyle?

EDIT: Incidentally, isn't it a bit of a long stretch to compare 'gay accent' to 'rape joke'?

EDITAGAIN: I'd also like to agree with opal about the whole gay/camp thing! That's one of the things that annoys me the most about jokes such as this.

The point isn't that it's extreme. The point is that when you start allowing it on the minor stuff, you allow it on the larger stuff as well. That is why I gave the link to rape culture - not because I think it is similar in context to rape, of course, but because the sort of culture is the same, where the things go unnoticed until it's decided it's extreme enough that people can pay attention.

As for your friend: Christians are not a minority and they really don't have to worry about persecution. If you don't care about gay rights and that people will take these 'jokes' seriously, then go ahead and make them. But they are part of what's preventing us from moving forwards.

Not to say I necessarily agree, but identifying as some sexual orientation (other than asexuality) or another depends on being attracted to certain people (we might characterise this as 'positive') whereas identifying as asexual depends on not being attracted to people ('negative'). It is much, much more difficult to establish a negative than to establish a positive, because "I have not yet met someone I am attracted to" and "I am not attracted to people at all" strike me as very difficult to tell apart. I don't know, maybe they aren't? Of course I don't know what it's like, but that goes both ways.

That said I think identifying as anything before you're out of puberty is rather silly and would prefer everyone just stopped talking about sexual orientation period.

While I agree in principle (in this context, especially; perpetuating the use of 'gay' to be synonymous with 'camp' is not helping, guys) I think you're wrong to equate this sort of thing with people making rape jokes, because it is not (in most cases) rape victims who make rape jokes

That's completely not what I meant and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I only meant to illustrate how the same sort of culture is going on here as in rape culture, where (as I explained above, sorry for being repetitive) the 'minor' things are ignored because they aren't considered important enough.

Re: asexuality, there is a really easy way of knowing, and that is when other kids start obsessing over whatever gender they're obsessing over, you start going :| wtf is wrong with these people. And as the years progress and they get boy/girlfriends you continue thinking :| wtf is wrong with these people. There's always the option of trying things and realizing that they are very unpleasant but that's completely unnecessary and painful so it's generally best to just. Not do it.

ETA: If a Muslim were making anti-Muslim jokes they should be made aware of the effect those jokes have on their community, yes.

 

[opaltiger]

This is a fair point. But what if he were, say, Muslim? I'm pretty sure Muslims are generally persecuted.

I would say sure, go for it, but that's because I tend to think everyone should take their beliefs far less seriously than a lot of people do, so it's not quite comparable.

Re: asexuality, there is a really easy way of knowing, and that is when other kids start obsessing over whatever gender they're obsessing over, you start going :| wtf is wrong with these people. And as the years progress and they get boy/girlfriends you continue thinking :| wtf is wrong with these people. There's always the option of trying things and realizing that they are very unpleasant but that's completely unnecessary and painful so it's generally best to just. Not do it.

I'm going to have to call you out, because now you're generalising. I never obsessed over either gender. I've never had a boyfriend or a girlfriend, and it wasn't until quite recently that I first realised I might like someone. I was always the person rolling their eyes when my friends talked about their highly important teenage relationships. I suspect people thought I was gay because I never talked about girls (nor boys, but people tend to ignore inconvenient facts like that).

But I don't think any of that was reason to think I was asexual. Just that I was having a different experience growing up. I didn't bother trying to label myself very much; I figured eventually I would work it out (and I did, in the form of 'this is all fucking stupid'). I'm not trying to question your judgement; I'm just saying that it's not impossible that some people who identify as asexual simply haven't yet found themselves attracted to anyone. Just like it's not impossible that some people who identify as straight haven't yet found themselves attracted to someone of the same gender. And so on.

 

[Zeph]

The point is that when you start allowing it on the minor stuff, you allow it on the larger stuff as well.

...Except I don't, and never will.

If you don't care about gay rights and that people will take these 'jokes' seriously...

...Except I really, really do care about gay rights.

Seriously, should people not be allowed to have a sense of humour about their sexualities, or, indeed, any other aspect of their lives? Frankly the world would be a very boring place if the answer was no.

 

[Butterfree]

You might notice this forum has become a place for all queer people to group towards. There aren't more ace people here than there are, say, any other quiltbag people. In fact I'm pretty sure there are less. But I don't see you questioning the honesty of gay members or bi members or any other members.

Again, why is it jumping the gun when someone says they are asexual but not when they say they're gay or straight or bi or anything? Do you think that, for some reason, it takes more self awareness to know you're not attracted to someone than to know you are?

Kids know all the time that they're gay or bi or trans when they're so young as 6 or 9 or god even knows. Why is that completely normal but knowing you're ace isn't? I don't get it.

...um. I'm wholly supportive of asexuality, but do you really not see the slightest bit of a difference between assuming you're gay because you're attracted to the same sex and assuming you're asexual because you're not attracted to anyone?

Asexuality is defined by a negative. That doesn't make it less valid as a sexual orientation, but that is a very meaningful detail when it comes to 'diagnosing' it, so to speak. Not wanting to jump anybody's bones at the moment does not mean you're asexual, least of all when you're at an age where you probably wouldn't be attracted to anyone either way. I thought even kissing was gross and was determined to be single my whole life until I was fourteen, but then one day suddenly boys were cute. Then I still wasn't crazy about sex for a few years and identified as heteroromantic asexual, but what do you know, when I was eighteen or nineteen or something my sex drive woke up. Oops.

So when I see fourteen-year-olds pronouncing themselves asexual? Yeah, I sort of wince and think they should probably wait a bit. If you're attracted to your own sex, you're attracted to your own sex; there's no disputing that. There's even less disputing it if you're attracted to both sexes. But not being attracted to people isn't an indicator of asexuality; it's just not an indicator of any other sexuality. If you've been a fully mature adult for a couple of years and have still experienced no attraction to anyone whatsoever, then yeah, you're pretty definitively asexual. And if you're a teen who hasn't been attracted to anyone I'm not going to tell you, "Oh, you just don't like anyone yet," because yeah, you could easily be asexual, and far be it from me to try to push you into the sexual mold. But asexuality, by its very nature, just isn't something you can know for certain until you've ruled out the "hormones haven't kicked in yet" explanation.

Again, this does not make asexuality worse, and I fully agree on the "hope you're not asexual" comment. But you cannot stand here insisting that knowing you're asexual is perfectly equivalent to knowing you're gay or bisexual. It is simply mathematically impossible.

 

[shy ♡]

Why can't you have a sense of humour about it without generalizing and being insulting?

Look, consider this. There are people who are practically abused at schools for having a 'gay voice'. They don't think it's funny. Obviously I can't stop you from finding it amusing or making jokes about it. But it is homophobic.

ETA: where are 14 year olds even claiming asexuality? :| Obviously there is a difference between a positive and a negative, but the general outlook is the same. I knew, in a way, I was ace when I was... probably 12. I just didn't know the word 'asexual' or what it meant. And everyone was telling me 'you should probably wait a bit'. So I did.

Also, asexuality also isn't entirely a negative. It isn't complete neutrality, for most people at least. I have a lot of disgust for the entire idea of sex and anything related to sex and physical contact in general. So that gives sort of an idea.

 

[Aisling]

Ergh oldpost

Again, why is it jumping the gun when someone says they are asexual but not when they say they're gay or straight or bi or anything? Do you think that, for some reason, it takes more self awareness to know you're not attracted to someone than to know you are?

I assumed that mostly because it was young people claiming it. (I'm quite sure there were or I wouldn't have said this, I might need to go back and reread thread lol) I was thinking, if a kid is eager to label themselves but they don't really consider that maybe they've never been sexually attracted to someone because they're young, they may just tack on the label of asexual because it describes how they've about other people so far.

But, like I said, I wouldn't know, people know themselves better than they know other people?

Also, why would you hope we're not? :| wat. I could just as easily say I hope you're all asexual because ew sex gross I feel so bad for you. But I don't think it's right to inflict my opinions of anything onto other people. So. Wat.

Because I'm a pretty sensual person, and I personally cannot imagine life without snuggling and carnal pleasures the same way I cannot imagine it without bacon or something like that. I didn't mean it to say that you can't live a fulfilling life without sex, it's just to me it's kind of a depressing thing to not be able to want...? Like. To someone from the outside looking in it's like you're missing something. But that's totally okay for you because you don't want it anyway, and I'm totally cool with people who don't. It's just, I'd personally rather like both flavors of ice cream than just have one favorite and hate the other one, if I were given a choice. Um, something. >: That probably came out really bad again but sorry if I came off as insulting?

 

[Butterfree]

ETA: where are 14 year olds even claiming asexuality? :| Obviously there is a difference between a positive and a negative, but the general outlook is the same. I knew, in a way, I was ace when I was... probably 12. I just didn't know the word 'asexual' or what it meant. And everyone was telling me 'you should probably wait a bit'. So I did.

Also, asexuality also isn't entirely a negative. It isn't complete neutrality, for most people at least. I have a lot of disgust for the entire idea of sex and anything related to sex and physical contact in general. So that gives sort of an idea.

Fourteen was just a number I pulled up; I wasn't thinking of anybody in particular, but I'm pretty sure I've seen people that young concluding they were asexual. Either way the exact number isn't the point. Sexual attraction manifests in different ways and at different ages for different people; like I said, I thought I was asexual until I was eighteen or nineteen. RandomTyphoon, who Cirrus's post was directed at, is fifteen according to their profile, and I think Cirrus is right in saying it would be rash to conclude asexuality at that age.

Revulsion at the idea of sex is a possible positive indicator of asexuality, yes, but most people also find sex pretty revolting until some point during puberty. I wrote a forum post ranting about how repulsive sex was and how I would never want to have it ever when I was fourteen. It is still hard to know for certain until you've reached an age where you would definitively not feel that way anymore if you were sexual.

Once again, not seeking to dismiss asexuality or anyone's asexual identity at all; just trying to point out that it's hard to judge for sure when you're young and that it's a perfectly valid (and non-prejudiced) point that people shouldn't rush into defining themselves as asexual.

 

[shy ♡]

People shouldn't rush into defining themselves as anything. :v I remember ranting about how gew should wait a few years before pronouncing itself asexual, which I now realize is just ridiculous. There are some people who are just not sexual. At all. And never will be.

Perhaps the key distinction is being aromantic as well. It's not that hard to know if you are romantic or not.

Alraune, I get your point. Sorry, I've just had people who're really really not understanding in that they want sex so everyone has to want sex. :\ But yeah.

 

[Cloudsong]

I love how this turned into a debate because people got offended by various other peoples saying something that they didn't agree with xD Anywho, as to the topic of this thread, yesh I am ^^

 

[Elliekat]

Yes, of course! Why wouldn't I be? :)

 

[Blade]

Why can't you have a sense of humour about it without generalizing and being insulting?

Look, consider this. There are people who are practically abused at schools for having a 'gay voice'. They don't think it's funny. Obviously I can't stop you from finding it amusing or making jokes about it. But it is homophobic.

I am gay and don't have a "gay voice", neither does my boyfriend, but, hell, there is a teacher who does, and people do say like "he's gay" and stuff like that, however (and though it is very normal in my school for teachers to be friends with the students, and also to openly critcise them), no one actually laughs at him, and, in my experience, people do not make fun of such a thing anymore.

I don't really think it's homophobic, it's just a way to "describe" something, because, and I don't really like to admit it, it is common for gay males to use that kind of voice. I don't know why but it is that way, and people relate that kind of voice with being homesexual, just as being mexican is related to dark-ish skin and using a sombrero, when it's not really true.

 

[Shiny Grimer]

On the topic of asexuality, I want to say that I identified as asexual when I was fourteen. When I was fifteen, I identified as biromantic asexual. The idea of sex revolted me (and it still kind of does, if I think about it too hard) and I had not had a real crush. I thought boys were cute and I noticed hot girls, but I had always done this. Like really, maybe I developed oddly but as a little girl, I can recall going "oh, that boy looks really handsome" or "that girl is so pretty" and being attracted to these people. I fancied certain people, but I told myself that it didn't count and was more of thinking "dang, they are *really* cute" as opposed to "I want to give them a lap dance." I did not have any sexual fantasies or anything.

Then a few months ago I met someone who changed all that and now I identify as biromantic heterosexual (maybe bisexual?). Coincidentally, the person I met also thought he was asexual when they were fourteen. He... doesn't think so anymore, to say the least. I guess we both jumped the gun on that one. :P