Fifth Generation Evolutions?

[Crazy Linoone]

@#1 bro: I agree with this very much, although a lot of pokemon seem forced. Combusken, for example, looks uncannily like Hawkmon. Most of the new legendaries (starting from gen 3, really) seem more like gods than super rare pokemon. At first, we had the legendary birds, which look like they could just be really rare animals. Even Lugia and Celebi seem like they're just rare; Lugias live at the bottom of the ocean, hence nobody can find them, and Celebi is just elusive due to its time-traveling abilities.

And then we had the Regis, which did not look like they occupy any sort of ecosystem at all. Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza (as much as I love them) are on the fence here -- they could be like Lugia and Ho-oh, really rare pokemon that's hard to find, but their superpowers make them seem... I dunno, a bit overboard. That's fine because it's the first time this happened, but then gen 4 came along and blew everything out of proportions. Now we have a god pokemon that created the whole universe, and that's just kind of unnecessary. We have the emotion/will/knowledge pixies, and those don't seem like normal animals at all, but more like gods. I don't know about gen 5's legendaries yet, since I'm avoiding plot spoilers and thus not sure of their functions, so I'll withhold comment on those.

Of course, not all legendaries are like that -- Latias/Latios, for example, really give off the elusive feeling. They're not all powerful, they're just really rare.

Digimon and YGO, on the other hand, aren't supposed to look natural. Digimon are, like the name suggests, digital monsters created by computers, while YGO monsters came from cards. Hence the big design difference: Digimon and YGO monsters are created to fight, but Pokemon are just normal animals.

And another thing: while pokemon are mostly designed to have a certain habitat, it doesn't mean that it has a good design, purely aesthetically speaking. Again, I bring back Kuritaran, which is a spiffy design (anteater) but looks a bit meh.

YuGiOh has shoe and burger monsters. I don't think Pokémon's gone quite that abstract yet.

But we do have ice-cream Pokemon! And magnet pokemon! Some pokemon are pretty darn abstract.

That you didn't realize what this is right away (especially since the Pokemon right after it is a steel type ant- this thing being a fire type makes the ant really obvious prey) boggles my mind. D: I think you're looking too hard at the wrong things here.

I think so too. But there's so many wrong things to look at D:

 

[surskitty]

Isn't Ho-oh based off of a phoenix?

That too.

I'm pretty sure okapi only have stripes on their butts and legs, that Shimama is a corruption of the Japanese word for zebra (you of all people should know this too), and that it evolves into a Pokemon that also has zebra in its name. Okapi aren't even really related to zebras, either, they're giraffes. And Ho-Oh is definitely supposed to be a phoenix, and while I guess you could argue that many phoenix representations draw elements from the peacock, the designers were probably looking at peacock-like phoenixes instead of making a phoenix-like peacock.

I don't think Gamefreak tends to care too much about whether evolutions make sense; see also echidna turning into ... stoat? turning into wolverine (hello cyndaquil line) and of course remoraid to octillery, though that one's probably a joke.

Gamefreak has also not shown much care for detail in what pokémon are labelled. See also the tsutaaja line being called snakes. (They're grass lizards.)

Shimama's neck looks more like an okapi's to me, I think. Also, the word for zebra is basically 'striped horse' anyway so. You have a point about only having stripes on its butt and legs, but I'm still leaning towards okapi. An okapi that turns into a zebra just because. (Stranger things have happened in Pokémon.)


Oh, Ho-oh's definitely a phoenix. It's just also clearly based on a peacock. You could split hairs as to whether they used a peacock as reference or just used peacock-like phoenixes, but either way it's a peacock/phoenix thing.


Crazy Linoone, please spell kuitaran right :(

 

[Aisling]

You have a point there... Blastoise definitely isn't a "shellfish".

I guess Shimama's neck is unusually straight and unhorselike, but I think if they had based it on an okapi it would be decidedly more okapi-like and less blatantly zebra (or trying to be a zebra, or whatever). Like... it could at least have ossicones or something. I'm pretty sure their intention was still a zebra, even if it resembles an okapi as much as any other chibi cartoon striped horse thing would.

 

[Not Meowth]

But we do have ice-cream Pokemon! And magnet pokemon! Some pokemon are pretty darn abstract.

...oh yeah, the ice cream. Okay, Pokémon are getting weird too :p
But still, hungry goddamn burger

 

[#1 bro]

@#1 bro: I agree with this very much, although a lot of pokemon seem forced. Combusken, for example, looks uncannily like Hawkmon. Most of the new legendaries (starting from gen 3, really) seem more like gods than super rare pokemon. At first, we had the legendary birds, which look like they could just be really rare animals. Even Lugia and Celebi seem like they're just rare; Lugias live at the bottom of the ocean, hence nobody can find them, and Celebi is just elusive due to its time-traveling abilities.

And then we had the Regis, which did not look like they occupy any sort of ecosystem at all. Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza (as much as I love them) are on the fence here -- they could be like Lugia and Ho-oh, really rare pokemon that's hard to find, but their superpowers make them seem... I dunno, a bit overboard. That's fine because it's the first time this happened, but then gen 4 came along and blew everything out of proportions. Now we have a god pokemon that created the whole universe, and that's just kind of unnecessary. We have the emotion/will/knowledge pixies, and those don't seem like normal animals at all, but more like gods. I don't know about gen 5's legendaries yet, since I'm avoiding plot spoilers and thus not sure of their functions, so I'll withhold comment on those.

Right, I agree. I think this is what turned a lot of people off of the fourth generation - how neither the absurdly powerful legendaries nor the unnecessary evolutions that make up for about half of the pokedex fit in the "spirit of pokemon" I described. U M and A are alright imho, they're very mew-like (although Mesprit is my least favorite pokemon due to its hideousness). But Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina are really bad. They look like soulless robotic fighting machine gods... I don't think it works very well. And Arceus... don't get me started. Arceus is probably the worst thing to happen to pokemon imho, although obviously it's not a huge deal because pokemon is still as sweet as ever.

The third generation I think was alright though. Kyogre looks like it could completely just be a big thing lying on the sea floor, Groudon a big thing sleeping in a cave somewhere, and Rayquaza a big thing flying around in the sky. The regis are golems sculpted by an ancient civilization - they aren't particularly strong and this is a somewhat mundane and reasonable explanation so I'm fine with it.

You'll be happy to know that gen V's legendaries are a lot better in this regard, however, as is the generation in general.

 

[Phoenixsong]

The nose shape for the tsutarja line very definitely comes from vine snakes, not lizards, surskitty. There is some snake in there, trust me. Like most pokémon (as you yourself brought up with the ho-oh thing), it's more of an amalgam than it is any one thing.

And I've sort of been wondering something: what exactly is wrong with the idea of "pokémon gods"? Why couldn't the ostensible deities of this world be pokémon? Opinions about what they look like are one thing (giratina looks awesome shut up, and anyway it's nowhere near as out of left field as conehead and dildomon--not that I dislike any of them), whether or not small children should really be able to stuff God or antimatter or whatever into a portable ball is another thing, but I'm wondering how many people who complain about them are actually separating those things out from the simple concept of deity-like pokémon. If arceus were uncatchable and looked a little more first-gen, would it still be such a huge problem that it created the universe? I'm genuinely curious about this.

 

[surskitty]

The nose shape for the tsutarja line very definitely comes from vine snakes, not lizards, surskitty. There is some snake in there, trust me. Like most pokémon (as you yourself brought up with the ho-oh thing), it's more of an amalgam than it is any one thing.

Oh, definitely, but the whole thing with losing legs is a lot more reminiscent of grass lizards than snakes. Plus, then it's a grass-type grass lizard.

 

[Griffin]

Ho-oh is a Chinese phoenix. They're more heavily based off peacocks. In fact, it looks way more phoenix-like to me when you compare it with the normal Chinese phoenix.

 

[Crazy Linoone]

Right, I agree. I think this is what turned a lot of people off of the fourth generation - how neither the absurdly powerful legendaries nor the unnecessary evolutions that make up for about half of the pokedex fit in the "spirit of pokemon" I described. U M and A are alright imho, they're very mew-like (although Mesprit is my least favorite pokemon due to its hideousness). But Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina are really bad. They look like soulless robotic fighting machine gods... I don't think it works very well. And Arceus... don't get me started. Arceus is probably the worst thing to happen to pokemon imho, although obviously it's not a huge deal because pokemon is still as sweet as ever.

The third generation I think was alright though. Kyogre looks like it could completely just be a big thing lying on the sea floor, Groudon a big thing sleeping in a cave somewhere, and Rayquaza a big thing flying around in the sky. The regis are golems sculpted by an ancient civilization - they aren't particularly strong and this is a somewhat mundane and reasonable explanation so I'm fine with it.

You'll be happy to know that gen V's legendaries are a lot better in this regard, however, as is the generation in general.

I'm actually fine with their designs; since they're gods and stuff, they can be a little bit special (although Palkia's design is kinda... um.) U, M, and A just look ugly.

I think Giratina is great, actually; it fits the pokemon spirit pretty well in my opinion. Since it lives in another dimention, it has to be a little weird. I think Giratina is just one of those really, really rare pokemon that hangs around in another world having tea and doing whatever pokemon from other dimensions do. It looks pretty spiffy; its worm-like body and wings in Origin Forme allows it to move around in its natural habitat (Distortion World) easily, and it's allowed to be weird because it's from another dimension.

I also adore Heatran because it's cute. It's like Groudon's cousin or something.

And I've sort of been wondering something: what exactly is wrong with the idea of "pokémon gods"? Why couldn't the ostensible deities of this world be pokémon? Opinions about what they look like are one thing (giratina looks awesome shut up, and anyway it's nowhere near as out of left field as conehead and dildomon--not that I dislike any of them), whether or not small children should really be able to stuff God or antimatter or whatever into a portable ball is another thing, but I'm wondering how many people who complain about them are actually separating those things out from the simple concept of deity-like pokémon. If arceus were uncatchable and looked a little more first-gen, would it still be such a huge problem that it created the universe? I'm genuinely curious about this.

I'm more bothered by the fact that a ten-year-old can stuff a pokemon that created the whole universe into a little sphere and go around and battle other people with it without the world freaking out. I can understand a kid capturing Lugia without people going that crazy, but if you went around and captured the god that created the universe and the god that controls time and space, I think the people would be just a little bit worried.

Having a god pokemon is fine, but the fact that you can capture them without people freaking out is not. I would rather the gods be characters, not just another creature to complete your pokedex with.

Actually, that would make a pretty interesting game: you end up capturing some god pokemon to stop some evil plot/whatever, and the whole region massively freaks out and goes after you to make you release said god pokemon. And then some more plot happens. And then something awesome.

 

[Superbird]

I also adore Heatran because it's cute.

I'm suddenly reminded of that really cute picture of a Heatran with a balloon hold item from B/W. It was hilarious.

Anyway, about Arceus—What about Mew? More NPCs would probably know what Mew was more than they would know Arceus. Maybe any notable person doesn't know that Arceus is a god and just figures it's really rare?

 

[Eloi]

I'm more bothered by the fact that a ten-year-old can stuff a pokemon that created the whole universe into a little sphere and go around and battle other people with it without the world freaking out. I can understand a kid capturing Lugia without people going that crazy, but if you went around and captured the god that created the universe and the god that controls time and space, I think the people would be just a little bit worried.

1) This is pseudo-Japan, the Pokemon World (mostly). Gods are not held in the same reverence as in the Western world. Japan is not only the most secular nation out there, but the gods in its religion are not all-powerful. They usually accidentally create the things they do, not because they are particularly wise or strong, but because they were born as gods (similar to the way nobles are nobles because they were born into it, not because they themselves are special). Most people in Sinnoh that you are fighting with Arceus either: a) are secular and don't believe in the myths b) don't particularly revere Arceus anymore than the other Pokemon (more on that in point 2) c) don't connect your Arceus with the myths of it (I mean, if no one has ever seen one in modern times, how'd they know what Arceus looks like?)
2) With all of the impressive Pokemon, do you think any one is really surprised anymore? "Oh. Hey. A gigantic blue dragon with red wings flying over head with a ten-year old on it. Oh. Hey. An electric rodent. Oh. Hey. A computerized pink and blue thing that resembles a mix between N64 graphics and orgami."
3)Ten-year-olds is more of a coming of age than in the Western world in Japan. So its not /that/ silly over there.

So I think its more of cultural differences causing the unlikely scenario than Game Freak not having foresight.

 

[Butterfree]

Can we really not just chalk the "people not freaking out when you capture gods" thing up to, you know, the part where it's a video game? You can do it in the video game because a large part of the point of the Pokémon video games is that all the monsters are essentially the same thing - if you fight something, you will be able to obtain one for yourself and use it to fight, one way or another, unlike Final Fantasy or something where the monsters are just enemies designed purely to fight you and you could never have them on your side. If there's an awesome god Pokémon, people want to be able to catch it and use it in their games, and it would just be annoying if all the NPCs started avoiding you or whatever (though it would be neat if they got different dialogue). It falls under the same category as why you never have to sit around waiting for challengers when you become the Champion; that's what would actually happen, but implementing it in the video game would just be silly and annoying.

Meanwhile, in the anime we would never see Arceus or Dialga or Palkia or Giratina just caught by some ten-year-old and nobody having a problem with it. There are (adult, completely obsessed) madmen who would attempt something like that but everyone is appropriately horrified when it happens. Choosing to ignore the anime canon in favor of a game mechanic obviously there for the pleasure of the player and then using that to complain about the existence of these Pokémon? Yeeah, does nobody else see a problem with that?

 

[Deadly Sniper Goat]

As to Arceus/Palkia/Whatevs-

Time for some pseudo-theological rambling, as this had bugging me for a while. Why would Arceus (and by extension ANY legendary) let itself get caught so (relatively) easily? I mean, he's the freaking creator of the Universe (at least in this/that plane of existence), he has power over everyone and everything (supposedly, either directly or not) and is supposed to be God... Then one fine day, the truth struck me in the head like a snowball coming from nowhere. It's actually simple: Arceus, being God, is immortal, while us puny mortals get to live... how much? 70 years? 90 at best? Guessing that such a short amount of time could barely mean anything to God, I've come to the conclusion it's a fair deal (and admittedly a pretty devious one): you get to "own" God for a while, then after your time has come, he either OWNS you (if some people's beliefs are to be right) or simply he sets himself free and continue with His business. After all, what's a human lifespan to Arceus - ever thought of that? Maybe he had been flipping you off all the time, or just wanted to give you the illusion of having caught a GOD FORREAL! and gloat about it while it lasts; or simply put, he took a liking to you and wanted to be pals with you, again while it lasted. As frightening such a thought could be, it's true - such things can happen in the great scheme of things (provided there's one), so I have to say, kudos to you, good sir!

I really don't have anything more to contribute to the way this discussion has turned other than that the Gen V mons are really fricken cool. Buffafro in particular is going on my team regardless of if he sucks or not.

 

[surskitty]

Buffafro in particular is going on my team regardless of if he sucks or not.

Reckless Baffuron is more than capable of doing 98% damage to Scizor or Forretress or something like that with Afro Break.

That's something not very effective against something bulky.

Suck baffuron does not.

 

[Kabigon]

Also, one thing that has bothered me in Generation IV and now in Generation V is the skew between regular Pokemon and rare Pokemon. Hell, most of the legendaries in Diamond and Pearl seemed to come out of nowhere. I was able to tolerate Dialga starting time, Palkia forming space, and then the three pixies giving it substance. What I was not able to tolerate was the other five or six Pokemon that receieved legendary status for the sake of being Legendary. Generation Four and Five have killed the term legendary.

Hell, looking at the Pokedex now, I can hardly tell where Legendary begins and Legendary rare Pokemon begins. It's really unnerving.

 

[Eloi]

Also, one thing that has bothered me in Generation IV and now in Generation V is the skew between regular Pokemon and rare Pokemon. Hell, most of the legendaries in Diamond and Pearl seemed to come out of nowhere. I was able to tolerate Dialga starting time, Palkia forming space, and then the three pixies giving it substance. What I was not able to tolerate was the other five or six Pokemon that receieved legendary status for the sake of being Legendary. Generation Four and Five have killed the term legendary.

Hell, looking at the Pokedex now, I can hardly tell where Legendary begins and Legendary rare Pokemon begins. It's really unnerving.

Um...to who, exactly? Does that even matter? And aside from that, the only reason I can tell the difference between legendary (Articuno) and non-legendary (Dragonite) in Kanto Pokedex is prior knowledge and familiarity, and I can assure you that built up familarity will build the legendary distinction.

tl;dr: there was never the term or status 'legendary', your own mind/fandom created the distinction all yourself/selves.

 

[#1 bro]

Also, one thing that has bothered me in Generation IV and now in Generation V is the skew between regular Pokemon and rare Pokemon. Hell, most of the legendaries in Diamond and Pearl seemed to come out of nowhere. I was able to tolerate Dialga starting time, Palkia forming space, and then the three pixies giving it substance. What I was not able to tolerate was the other five or six Pokemon that receieved legendary status for the sake of being Legendary. Generation Four and Five have killed the term legendary.

Hell, looking at the Pokedex now, I can hardly tell where Legendary begins and Legendary rare Pokemon begins. It's really unnerving.

There are three legendary trios in B/W, and that's all. There are no more "random legendary pokemon" like Heatran, Cresselia, etc. You have nothing to complain about!

 

[Kabigon]

Why are there so many though!?

 

[Blastoise Fortooate]

Because they serve a purpose in the story or follow legendary traditions like the event legendaries being passed out at events and such?

 

[Yarnchu]

Why are there so many though!?

This is going by what Pokemon were introduced that gen, so Kanto is 5/151, Johto is 6/100, and so on.

Kanto: 3.31% are Legendary Pokemon
Johto: 6% are Legendary Pokemon
Hoenn: 7.41% are Legendary Pokemon
Sinnoh: 13.08% are Legendary Pokemon
Unova: 8.33% are Legendary Pokemon

As you can see, Unova's percentage of Legendary Pokemon is only slightly higher than Hoenn's, and even then they all serve a purpose, unlike with many of Sinnoh's legends. Besides, there's 156 Pokemon in the dex. Plenty of normal Pokemon. The whole legendary thing isn't a huge issue in this game as it was in D/P, where there were fewer new Pokemon AND a huge amount of pointless legendary Pokemon. :/