Forum Revival TV Tropes Mafia Revival - D7

[rari_teh]

ftr i (at least personally) had no issue with you raising issue during ottertime! i think especially at this juncture it's valuable to hear from everyone. in my case i was concerned w/keeping the peace in that moment but it would be kind of sad imo if you didn't let us know about future gut feelings/logic reads ;(

I still plan on sharing my reads and (most) gut feelings, but I’ll be more cautious about how I present them…

ottertime

lol

 

[Keldeo]

If I'm understanding what you mean by "cautious" correctly, there's no need to be cautious, rari! The more sincere thoughts you give, the more people can interpret where you're coming from and be swayed by your ideas.

I think lynching inactive people is probably something we can afford to do for a bit, especially if the next best alternative is abstaining - abstaining essentially trades away a chance to resolve the alignment of someone who we don't know a lot about. There are (probably) active mafia so it won't be a winning strategy, of course, but we'll have to deal with inactive people sooner or later because if they don't get more active, it's hard to read them.


Herbe, why do you townread mewtini?

mewtini - still reading, yeah. There's the sort of implied "I don't think town MI Seshas would have hidden all of their information" between the first and third points, and the second point is also implied and connects to the vote, if that makes sense? Like I can construct a potential root of kyeugh's initial line of thought as similar to Mawile's - "MIs wouldn't get so little information (so Seshas is hiding something / not a MI, so that makes me suspicious that they're 3p / I want them to explain)"

Also you both seem to think I'm good at this game... I'll have you know I just played like three town games where I had no idea what was going on and was really wrong! You Have No Idea Who You're Dealing With!

 

[rari_teh]

Also you both seem to think I'm good at this game... I'll have you know I just played like three town games where I had no idea what was going on and was really wrong! You Have No Idea Who You're Dealing With!

I smell Dunning-Kruger. Your experience makes you think you’re not experienced enough.

 

[Keldeo]

Also, mewtini, have you got any spicy takes? (something you've thought that you don't think anyone else has posted about?)

 

[mewtini]

Also, mewtini, have you got any spicy takes? (something you've thought that you don't think anyone else has posted about?)

as of now i don't think so, but i'm actually starting to go back and try to compile notes to verify this. i'll report back uwu

 

[Herbe]

I went back to look for specific things that gave me Good Feels, here are some in random order (with comments!)

was wondering about this but couldn't tell if it was just borne out of the early negrek-VM associations, since they both semi-roleclaimed early on

this was a comment on someone else's take and it seems like... actually Involved and Thinky. like, you can tell she's puzzling things out outside of just thinking up shit to say in the middle of being in the thread.

also idk if this is still a topic of discourse but i also want to like, formally take back the shade i briefly threw on kyeugh last night. i was kind of because the way it read to me she cast suspicion on seshas without (i thought) any rationale/i kind of felt like it was a reach and i read her early explanation as a bit of an awk backpedal

but after sleeping on it and reading back through her justification and eifie talking about it after the fact i'm a bit more comforted now

I really like how this shade-retraction is worded. it's specific and not just "well shit, my bandwagon failed, let's hop off."

fr though do we actually have any ideas other than "kill the inactive, shrug"

"kill the inactive, shrug" would theoretically be perfectly acceptable for a mafia member (yes.... I realise that I'm voting for an inactive right now until further notice :/// just saying that her looking for more ideas than that is townish to me)

i just meant that atm the awkward reads we had on her are the only leads we have thus far so i think investigation is in order.

just goes with my Involved And Cares And Such quotes

continuing to say that, even if i can definitely construe it as an opportunistic take, i don't even know how dangerous it is considering that they kind of backed off of it. they haven't unvoted afaik, but they also haven't put a lot of effort into leading others to the same conclusion; they've chiefly just been a follower in this game (sorry to beat a dead horse). even though in that one long post they mentioned vote placement being a way to get others to vote for someone, i don't know if i believe yet that that's their end game, since they've seemed very content to have their vote just exist in the ether for the time being

i just really fail to believe that mafia!mewtini would give as much of a shit to really dig this deep for this take tbh. she seems genuinely investigatey about this, and definitely isn't jumping ppls asses even when it would hypothetically be easy to cast stronger suspicion on others

so yeah! there's my evidence and such. I suppose it is useful to collate things like that instead of relying on general vibe checks. thanks for the push keldeo!! might do more like this in the future should the mood strike me (or someone asks me to)

 

[mewtini]

Also, mewtini, have you got any spicy takes? (something you've thought that you don't think anyone else has posted about?)

i'm exactly at the halfway point but i have a few (maybe unimportant, tbh) qs. i'll maybe return later with more, idk if that'll be tonight or tomorrow, depends on how strong my will is! (or how much i care about my ongoing sleep deprivation.)
---------------------
1. what is the current climate in re: indigoemmy? are we trusting the roleclaim at the moment? fsr i'm perfectly good with reading back through our thread but can't get up the spirit to fully read (beyond skimming) the MI talk in tvt mafia #1, but i kind of wonder if it was possible for that roleclaim to be faked when she was a bit lackadaisical about it here:

Or am i lying and just overreacting? you tell me?

(tbh i don't think this is actually anything significant, AND i forget what info was even deleted; did she post her role pm or something?)
obviously she was having fun with things (hahaha to say the least), it's just that afaik she's given us exactly the same information as was given through informant!hopeandjoy in tvt #1. either way i kind of don't care about this, it's just a thought and at some point i think eifie declared emmy mechcleared and i didn't realize that was the consensus

2. i forget what i've said about ILS in the past (other than when rari and i were talking about seshas' take on ILS' genuine-seeming response to VM's superpower claim) but looking back and connecting the dots, i actually kind of understand what rari meant here:

He seems to get suspicious easily. [...]
I believe he’s town, though you can never be 100% sure.

and at the time i wasn't sure because i was slightly uncomfortable with rari's reaction to otter, but atm i can't tell if ILS is just inactive and occasionally popping in to offer insights that, imo, have been low-hanging fruit: he wasn't alone when he posted about the possibility of mafia!negrek, though notably i don't think anyone else questioned/is questioning VM's slipup, other than ILS. (the benevolent seshas/rari/me read notwithstanding, i think the alternative to 'inactivity' is something kind of questionable)

That's true, especially that it's a role that could be easily faked. To be honest, I'm also a little suspicious of VM because they backtracked on their claim. It's still too early to be sure of much of anything, at any rate.

given that we had been establishing a flow chart between negrek/vm (whose roles, if true - and i have no reason to believe they aren't - are obviously v connected during n0/d1/n1), i guess i just feel a little bit ? that he was suspicious of both claims, but maybe that's just due to how i saw it as a bit of a clear-cut situation; either negrek and vm both correctly roleclaimed, and checking on VM would check this out, OR (mafia!)negrek was lying and VM is a loose end, OR they're both lying and outcome 2 happens anyway. (by the way was there real discussion of protecting him, if only for verification's sake?)

also having sorted through the thread/checking most of the list for inactivity, i don't think we were aware that flora has only posted twice (once during early game, without any of the then-ongoing flavorspec, and once in 347 for a short post). insignificant but i figure i'll save someone else the time that i spent checking/would like to hear from as many people as possible

 

[mewtini]

in re: ils i forgot to mention

I'm getting kinda not great vibes from rari_teh... they've been super quick to pounce on Negrek, hm.

and this may just be up to how i read context but at the time i thought rari's negrek discussion seemed more solvy than shit-stirring, and other than the seshas read thing (idk what else to refer to it as), i don't think i've seen ils post anything of any other nature

 

[mewtini]

tbh also total disclaimer that this is only based on me literally going back to page one and reading until page 21, so i think there's a distinct possibility i exaggerated things that no longer matter.

also how the fuck do you guys manage to make such long posts ... all the time ... lol. i feel WINDED right now

 

[Keldeo]

Catchup part 2.

I think in a vacuum it's notable that what Otter wanted to post about first was proving a supposed strong town role, but ehh, I don't think her post is like, super damning in the context of her being on TCoDf. I think wanting to try to prove roles and reading over the thread without posting any thoughts are not really that scummy for most people here. I also don't think she was advocating for VM to like prove himself immediately, she mentioned it was a general idea that could be on a future day, so I'm not sure where Seshas got that. I'm interested in more from Otter - I think that would be more readable.

idk about kyeugh but I kind of wondered if the "I can't unsee it" might be a disproportionate reaction to what is a kind of meh and not necessarily scum-indicative thing. I'm too lazy to look into it tbh. peasants, do the work for me.

Hmm. I thought it was disproportionate, but also I find Rari's explanation fine, and I get the point that you and mewtini raised (in different words) that Rari has been kind of... agendaless in their posts. This is an off-the-cuff read and I probably need to look at them more, but it's like, they have made these kinda sheepy scumreads but they're not really strongly pushing them to other people, and their internal viewpoint seems consistent too. Does that make sense... I might be biased by the fact that a lot of their posting has read genuinely/pure to me :V

I'm not sure how to feel about kyeugh's push on Rari overall, but I do like that she felt weird about Rari's original suspicion of her but didn't push it immediately, she brought it up after she saw a pattern, and the second post quoted here is really thoughtful about Rari's POV imo. Her position on them seems fluid in a good way.

Spoiler

anyway i don’t like rari’s vote tbh because their vote on me pinged me as kind of weird/sudden, but i try not to base my reads on the way people read me, so i kind of tucked it away. but that combined with how they seemed confused at the notion of a pressure vote and their imo overblown reaction to the analysis on rebecca gives me kinda opportunistic vibes

not strong ones mind you but i still don’t like it

i don’t think they were at all. they definitely see the distinction, they just don’t think wanting someone to talk more is worth a vote. that’s why they assumed i was gung ho about seshas based on my vote, and they also specified earlier that they were suspicious of me and wanted me to talk but didn’t think i was LIKELY to be scum which is why they didn’t vote. given they vote for one of these feelings and not the other i’d say they’re distinguishing them more than i do

Definitely don't think they're partners, or that kyeugh and mewtini are partners, based off the prolonged and like, tricky nature of the conversation. I know that probably doesn't make sense but I don't strongly think any of them are mafia so it likely won't come into play.

Mewtini also felt pretty natural and flowy, especially in that conversation. But I think want to see a bit more original stuff from her, it's possible I'm overcompensating for Eifie feeling very pocketed by her :P

I like Herbe's recent posting - it feels natural and genuine. Pretty comfortable with him as town for now.

 

[Keldeo]

Questions for folks:

@rari_teh, what makes you think that kyeugh is town? Also, can I get a quick summary of your reads so far, I feel like you've been pretty present and transparent but also you've changed your mind on things so it's hard for me to get a full picture of where you are right now.

@Herbe, what do you think about kyeugh and rari independently, and their discussion with mewtini about the voting thing?

i don’t think seshas is mafia basically no matter what—only anti-town third party MAYBE, and solitary even then. i can’t really conceive of a situation i believe in even a little bit rn in which you are defending him for selfish reasons

@kyeugh, forgive me if you addressed this somewhere and I missed it, but what made you think Seshas wasn't mafia? And you pointed out kokorico's read on me but I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with it or expressing a read on em, do you have any thoughts on em emself? - Also, most important question, do you have any particular townreads so far?

Spoiler: referenced rari_teh post

Well… I won’t deny, for like 50% of the time I’ve been here I was pretty sure you [Keldeo] were mafia. I don’t remember exactly what post first made me think that, but… lately I’ve been reassessing that evaluation. Not entirely convinced either way.

And Mawile. I also don’t quite remember what was it (I should really have taken better notes), but something seems off (sorry!). Those are more gut feelings than actual readings, anyway.

My impressions pretty much exactly match rari_teh's. The tentative feeling I was unsure about sharing was that Keldeo was coming off as mafia to me.

@kokorico, when you said your impressions matched rari's, did that also include a read on Mawile or was that about something else / just generally because you were suspecting me?

The Queen
Eifie!
[snip]

@Eifie can you tell me about Mawile being the I Like One Or Two Posts tier, and since you're masons with me and not a cop, do you have any opinion on Mist's posts?

I generally have pretty similar thoughts to your list. Maybe I'm doing the thing where I townread everyone :wowee: I think you made a good point about serimachi that I didn't really consider, but I don't know if I'd put them in that tier.

Spoiler

Maybe talk to me more about my rari take? idk. My really awful read is that rari has outside communication with someone because they've said "RNP" and "qva" when I... don't think anyone else has? Maybe you did?

Eifie can you talk to me a bit about your probably town pile minus mewtini and Herbe

@Mist1422, why'd you ask about these people (rari, kyeugh, serimachi) in specific? Do you have a further read on that group / what's your read on mewtini and Herbe? Do you have any other thoughts you'd like to share?

 

[Keldeo]

Kinda meh on most of my reads tbh, but I have townreads that I feel some amount of good about on like 10 people, and that's fair enough for d1. Eifie, I know you were concerned about townreading people who were posting, but also I feel like high postcount ~= town is somewhat valid for TCoDf d1s, taking into account that this is an atypical TCoDf d1.

Not being sure about kyeugh's push on Rari is not actually a correct representation of my thoughts. I think I like her overall.

Mewtini can be town now for putting the work in via rereading 20 pages. >o< (I also like that she noticed the things she's pointed out.)

1. what is the current climate in re: indigoemmy? are we trusting the roleclaim at the moment?

I haven't read any of TVTropes 1, but (1) I don't think that IndigoEmmy would have known enough about that game to have known about Mysterious Informants existing, so her roleclaim's probably true, and (2) I think her claim of it was towny - specifically the way that she went about, like, dancing around having the information and sort of drip-feeding it into the thread and being very "ha ha you'll never guess" about it...

I do take back my earlier read that this was her first mafia game since she's played irl, and it's possible that she got fed the information for (1) through a mafia chat, but then (2) is still true so I'm pretty sure she is town. I think the posts like the one you quoted, such as feeling underestimated and being playful about the possibility that she's mafia, are probably a sentiment she'd feel as either alignment.

What do you think?

(the benevolent seshas/rari/me read notwithstanding, i think the alternative to 'inactivity' is something kind of questionable)

Sorry, what does this mean?

atm i can't tell if ILS is just inactive and occasionally popping in to offer insights that, imo, have been low-hanging fruit: he wasn't alone when he posted about the possibility of mafia!negrek, though notably i don't think anyone else questioned/is questioning VM's slipup, other than ILS.)

It sounds like you have an opposite read to rari there, is that right?

I don't have a super strong opinion on ILS, I see what you mean about his early posting but I could also see it going either way. What do you think of the "derpclear" that Seshas pointed out? It makes sense to me but it's really not at the strength level of like, a "body of work" read.

I probably won't be here very much before the deadline.

 

[mewtini]

I haven't read any of TVTropes 1, but (1) I don't think that IndigoEmmy would have known enough about that game to have known about Mysterious Informants existing, so her roleclaim's probably true, and (2) I think her claim of it was towny - specifically the way that she went about, like, dancing around having the information and sort of drip-feeding it into the thread and being very "ha ha you'll never guess" about it...

yeah this is why i think it was a reach on my part, but one where it was a remote possibility IF she had the #guts for it. also in 497 when butterfree said

There are commonalities, and talking about the previous game is worthwhile to some extent, but the previous game does not give information that applies to this one - just because something was true there does not mean it's true here.

i wasn't sure if this meant that a full role-recycle would ever happen, and i guess that's maybe a pointless q to ask since it's definitionally answerless during the game's run, but. basically i don't really know why she's been read as pure town aside from her roleclaim, because i don't think it's beyond imagination that if she were ever genuinely suspected (which she hasn't been) that she would grow desperate. so i guess i just didn't read her as being super in-flow.

(i also liked a point made earlier, maybe by you? about how she wouldn't have made attention-grabbing moves as mafia, but i also think it's possible - assuming she knew about the hopeandjoy informant role - that she thought roleclaiming would save her regardless)

 

[mewtini]

Sorry, what does this mean?

basically i meant that either ils was a) genuinely inactive and just showing up to agree with (very, very) easy to read group sentiments, or b) he was trying to feign involvement, but i really do think it's completely impossible to tell which right now. (oh, and the seshas read was in reference to when he reacted to VM's unlim-vigilante claim; not sure if that was also unclear in my phrasing)

It sounds like you have an opposite read to rari there, is that right?

i was with rari, i think, in not really thinking anything of ils until i read from p0-p21

What do you think of the "derpclear" that Seshas pointed out?

i agreed with it! but i didn't think it was super foolproof. i thought it made sense since ils had been responsive, but not entirely attentive, and it was a (seemingly) off-the-cuff post from ils that seshas was referring to. basically everything that ils has said has seemed similarly in-the-moment which makes me swing between "inactive but wants to be involved" and "unsavory but wants to avoid getting flagged"

 

[mewtini]

I see what you mean about his early posting but I could also see it going either way.

tl;dr i agree with you lol, honestly i think that the moment i feel anything off about anyone i start trying to deconstruct exactly why and maybe i hyperbolize it a bit in the process. i'm having a really hard time suspecting any of the active players with, like, maybe .5 of an exception (that i need to think more about, that's kind of why i'm rereading) and it's really criminally easy to instantly and habitually separate out the quieter people or the entirely inactives from the superactives

 

[Keldeo]

Thanks!

I thought Rari was expressing a townlean on ILS there, and I don't think activity is that alignment indicative for ILS but I think your pair of takes on it make sense. Wahoo, deconstruction of thoughts!

basically i don't really know why she's been read as pure town aside from her roleclaim, because i don't think it's beyond imagination that if she were ever genuinely suspected (which she hasn't been) that she would grow desperate. so i guess i just didn't read her as being super in-flow.

Hmm, I'm having a little trouble understanding how these thoughts fit together for you.

I have the exact opposite read on her "flowiness" - I feel like that sequence makes more sense if you read through with the idea that she's an excited townie who wants to have fun claiming information she thinks is useful but also wants to at least try to hide her role, vs. she's mafia and was, like, told that other people know that Mysterious Informant is a role that exists and she needs to claim it so people townread her. I feel like it would come out much more rigidly / some of her reactions wouldn't have happened the way they did if it were the latter case. Also, in that world, why claim it just then - she was not really getting heat iirc?

You're right, it is probably a bad assumption to just assume that all Mysterious Informants will still be town or something like that. I still feel like the way she claimed and a few later posts she made were pretty unselfconscious even if she is a mafia Mysterious Informant.

(i also liked a point made earlier, maybe by you? about how she wouldn't have made attention-grabbing moves as mafia, but i also think it's possible - assuming she knew about the hopeandjoy informant role - that she thought roleclaiming would save her regardless)

I think that point was Eifie's, about kyeugh suspecting Seshas?

 

[mewtini]

Hmm, I'm having a little trouble understanding how these thoughts fit together for you.

ha sorry honestly i might be incapable of 100% coherence (5am vibes) but i can try :') at the time i didn't read her as super confident necessarily, but i think i'm biased because of her (tbh relatable) panic about accidental rulebreaking. i think we also haven't seen her under any pressure - not that she should be under any - but it's kind of hard to say anything when she's only been in play for very comparatively quiet parts of the day. hoooowever,

I have the exact opposite read on her "flowiness" - I feel like that sequence makes more sense if you read through with the idea that she's an excited townie who wants to have fun claiming information she thinks is useful but also wants to at least try to hide her role, vs. she's mafia and was, like, told that other people know that Mysterious Informant is a role that exists and she needs to claim it so people townread her. I feel like it would come out much more rigidly / some of her reactions wouldn't have happened the way they did if it were the latter case.

this is legit. admittedly i skimmed this part of the thread bc i thought i remembered what went down, so iirc i also didn't know that she hadn't really played mafia at that point (she confirmed later that she's a bit newer, though). i guess i'm curious about why you think the second possibility isn't possible; this is also maybe a reach, but even though a lot of us haven't read tvt #1, there are still some of us who have who could be in scumchat and who would realize that hopeandjoy's role was entirely public. and tbh i think from seeing her around that she could make anything sound cute and happy, full compliments to her

Spoiler: far reach

this is the paraphrased pm that emmy posted:

I am yet another Mysterious Informant. My power is Expospeak, and I can tell that there are magic doctors and Nanomachine using doctors. The two sides don't get along.

but it doesn't really seem to match her grammatical style which made me briefly go into Conspirator Mode and wonder if she typed it herself but then again she might've just been really careful? lol

Also, in that world, why claim it just then - she was not really getting heat iirc?

agree!

 

[mewtini]

agree!

that is to say: i kind of am just tired!loopy and going through the full thread for the first time, so i think it's very fair as i said before that i might just be going ham; neither of these points are things i'm super committed to or in love with, i'm just kinda speculating full-out since this is the first chance i've gotten to read everything at once

 

[Keldeo]

That's totally fair, these thoughts are good. I hope you get a good night's sleep!!

i guess i'm curious about why you think the second possibility isn't possible; this is also maybe a reach, but even though a lot of us haven't read tvt #1, there are still some of us who have who could be in scumchat and who would realize that hopeandjoy's role was entirely public.

No, I think it's a decent argument that if any mafia were familiar with the first game, they'd be trying to harness that knowledge to make good fake claims or something. What I mean is I have a bit of a hard time seeing IndigoEmmy, like... being told to claim Mysterious Informant in the thread, and then like, posting the letters jumbled up and getting play-irritated at Eifie for "tricking her" into claiming it and stuff.

The other alternate possibility that I haven't thought about that much is that she's mafia and also a Mysterious Informant, I guess?

 

[mewtini]

I think that point was Eifie's, about kyeugh suspecting Seshas?

i'm not gonna lie i thought it was about emmy but i might just not be remembering correctly, i'll have to check on that

Seshas and IndigoEmmy are basically lock town imo

also i didn't really think to look at this earlier even though the spoilered far-reach was something i immediately wondered because, even w/out all the memes about eifie and i bouncing off of each other, i actually have agreed with most of her takes thus far.

The other alternate possibility that I haven't thought about that much is that she's mafia and also a Mysterious Informant, I guess?

this is possible! idk how faithful bfree is being to the tropes' alignments but it sounded like MI is typically a benevolent trope, so i didn't really think of this earlier

What I mean is I have a bit of a hard time seeing IndigoEmmy, like... being told to claim Mysterious Informant in the thread, and then like, posting the letters jumbled up and getting play-irritated at Eifie for "tricking her" into claiming it and stuff.

this is also fair and i think that whole sequence is one of my hangups, too, i just ... idk. she seems enthusiastic enough that she would either decide to do this alone or be inspired to with very little effort? but i think there are other things about my take that don't make sense, primarily the reveal timing, but i'm really just fully out on a limb and rolling with it

since you're masons with me and not a cop

on that note can you just verify (guessing yes?) whether or not this was also a meme, i feel like it'd be amiss for me to just ignore this phrase