Gender

[Minish]

Uhm, ze/zir/zem are also default gender-neutral pronouns. Personally I use them (the pronoun 'them', not ze/zir/zem) as default if I don't know the person's gender.

Well, yes, there are lots. :P Lots and lots. I haven't really seen those used much, I've just been mentioning the ones in most common use, since this is what we're talking about right now.

My biggest problem, and it's a very small problem, with most gender-neutral pronouns is just the pronunciation.

That's why I'm not super-fond of sie/hir, either! I think they were definitely intended to be like middle ground between she/her and him/his, which isn't really useful if you're trying to distinguish yourself from either set. I'm sure there'll be endless pronunciation guides and discussions around? It's pretty hard to make consensus, I think it's just whatever's the most popular pronunciation or even just what you want. I hear 'see' and 'heer' a lot?

I think the real problem is less "they don't sound like English" and more "they don't sound like existing pronouns". Which is kind of silly, really. What does English sound like, then? sie/hir look fine as letter combinations in English go, even xie, 'x' just isn't exactly a common letter. They don't look like English because up until recently they weren't English, and that's only going to be fixed by helping them to be in common usage! And for lots of people a big thing is reaching a balance between looking relatively conventional but also not looking or sounding too much like existing ones.

 

[Crazy Linoone]

I personally find that "ey/eir/em" passes off better and are more widely used (I've actually heard people use them irl before), but I think singular they is what society is trending towards.

I feel like singular they is used more to obfuscate the gender of the person being referred to -- what ... said, basically. It has the connotation of trying to hide something, whether it is because it's more polite to not specifically refer to the person, or that you don't know which gender the person is, or some other reason that requires you to not say the gender.

While for ey/eir/em, I feel like it doesn't have the connotation of hiding something. They're just pronouns that refer to people in general.

 

[Hiikaru]

That's why I'm not super-fond of sie/hir, either! I think they were definitely intended to be like middle ground between she/her and him/his, which isn't really useful if you're trying to distinguish yourself from either set. I'm sure there'll be endless pronunciation guides and discussions around? It's pretty hard to make consensus, I think it's just whatever's the most popular pronunciation or even just what you want. I hear 'see' and 'heer' a lot?

The other reason I don't like sie/hir is that it's kind of not that intuitive! They both start with a different letter, which is kind of though to remember even though "she/her" is like that! Also it took me a while to figure out that oh, the third one is probably "hirs". And then apparently some people think you should just use "sie's", even though that doesn't work exactly right?

At the end of the day, I'll call people whatever they want to be called. I imagine that at some point, though, people will want their pronouns to be accepted by the mainstream. What can you imagine happening in that case (assuming society is ready for new pronouns and such)?

What do you mean, what would happen? If people really accepted everyone else's pronouns, then alternate pronouns would get used a lot, and everyone would be happier!

Also, I still think it would be nice if instead of having a few standards, people could make up pronouns! Not outlandish ones, but really, once you get used to one or two alternative sets, it's fairly easy to use others that kind of match! Ey/eir/em, se/ser/sem, ci/cir/cis, all of those are pretty much equally easy! I really liked v- pronouns for ages (siiince at least April, apparently), but the ~official~ set was "ve/ver/vis" so I felt like I couldn't use that because it was counter-intuitive! Then Adriane used a not-official pronoun set and I was like "... you can do that?" so now I have one, too! (although Any is still fine, which is why my field still says that) And I thought maybe it might end up bothering me but it didn't it just feels comfy and safe and like someone isn't making up ideas of what I'm like based on a pronoun!

Obviously you can't expect people to remember every set of pronouns if everyone could just make them up, but I don't think that would be the worst thing ever or even really that big a problem at all - people forget pronouns anyway, even people who want only cisgendered people to exist and think everyone else is delusional. People would practice until they usually got the pronouns of people they talked about often right, and at least tried for others even if they made lots of mistakes, and that would be fine!

 

[Karkat Vantas]

This seems like the place to ask...

I'm pretty certain gender doesn't exist. I understand there are things that are stereotypically masculine or feminine, I see the ramifications of these things every day-- but that's all they are. Stereotypes.

So, for the folks here who identify as either male or female (if you don't identify as either that's cool but unfortunately i don't think you can answer my question)-- what makes you feel that way?

 

[shy ♡]

This seems like the place to ask...

I'm pretty certain gender doesn't exist. I understand there are things that are stereotypically masculine or feminine, I see the ramifications of these things every day-- but that's all they are. Stereotypes.

So, for the folks here who identify as either male or female (if you don't identify as either that's cool but unfortunately i don't think you can answer my question)-- what makes you feel that way?

Can you read the thread?

 

[Phantom]

Can you read the thread?

In his defense Pathos it is a very long, in depth thread with a lot of huge posts in it. He just wants to get straight to the point I think without having to spend ten-twenty minutes shuffling through posts that are the equivalent of a thesis paper. But I understand where you are coming from.

But that was kind of mean.

 

[Karkat Vantas]

I did read through the thread until Arylett made her post because I went "oh god this thread's gonna be devolvin pretty fast"

Anyway, I guess I defined my post poorly: most of the discussion, from what I'm understanding, is that gender is what you're comfortable with. This is perfectly understandable, but it's not answering what I'm trying to get at. Let's try this again and see if I can get this right...

How do you define masculinity/femininity without using gender stereotypes?

 

[shy ♡]

In his defense Pathos it is a very long, in depth thread with a lot of huge posts in it. He just wants to get straight to the point I think without having to spend ten-twenty minutes shuffling through posts that are the equivalent of a thesis paper. But I understand where you are coming from.

But that was kind of mean.

What is the point in asking a question that was asked an answered several times over, in the same thread where those questions were asked and answered? And asking it in the same exact way? There is no point. It is redundant and frustrating. There is no other way to respond to such a question. I don't care if my response was mean; his question was infuriatingly dull and proved that he did not care to put any effort into the situation at all. If he wanted an answer, he could have read the goddamn thread. (Note I am not angry at you right here; I am angry at the situation and at how people think we're here to define things for them at their whimsy, regardless of the fact we already have. But no, they're too impatient to read what we've already written, they want us to write it again!)

I did read through the thread until Arylett made her post because I went "oh god this thread's gonna be devolvin pretty fast"

Anyway, I guess I defined my post poorly: most of the discussion, from what I'm understanding, is that gender is what you're comfortable with. This is perfectly understandable, but it's not answering what I'm trying to get at. Let's try this again and see if I can get this right...

How do you define masculinity/femininity without using gender stereotypes?

This is an entirely different question to what you previously asked, and it proves you are rather ignorant to the topic at hand. Masculinity/femininity are gender stereotypes.

 

[Karkat Vantas]

This is an entirely different question to what you previously asked, and it proves you are rather ignorant to the topic at hand. Masculinity/femininity are gender stereotypes.

I must be misusing these words then-- in the context of the post I'm using them to mean being a man/woman.

I apologize for being so terrible with these terms!

 

[ultraviolet]

This is an entirely different question to what you previously asked, and it proves you are rather ignorant to the topic at hand. Masculinity/femininity are gender stereotypes.

Hey, he's just asking a question; there's no need to be snooty about it. It's a good thing that he wants to try and understand this stuff, rather than sweeping it under the rug like so many other people do.

 

[Phantom]

What is the point in asking a question that was asked an answered several times over, in the same thread where those questions were asked and answered? And asking it in the same exact way? There is no point. It is redundant and frustrating. There is no other way to respond to such a question. I don't care if my response was mean; his question was infuriatingly dull and proved that he did not care to put any effort into the situation at all. If he wanted an answer, he could have read the goddamn thread. (Note I am not angry at you right here; I am angry at the situation and at how people think we're here to define things for them at their whimsy, regardless of the fact we already have. But no, they're too impatient to read what we've already written, they want us to write it again!)

Like I said, trying to go through the badly written thesis that is this thread is frustrating. He just wants to get to the point. Also you know what? You don't own this thread. There's also this little ignore function believe it or not that you can use. You don't HAVE to respond to people. You don't HAVE to have a say in everything that goes on. Maybe other people want to answer. It's nice to have someone truly interested instead of arguing and yet you seem to want to turn it into an argument by degrading people because they don't want to trudge through 8 pages of petty arguments, or angry rebuttles to try to find something that isn't one of the previous.

You don't want to write it again? Then don't! And don't assume that you speak for everyone here, because you do not. Maybe someone wanted to answer that question that you tag 'infuriatingly dull'.

Did you have to post that you were frustrated by it? Did the world need to know? Does it have anything, ANYTHING, to contribute to the topic? No. Yes. I can understand why you would be frustrated, but there are times when you act on frustration, and there are times where you just don't say anything because it is such a fucking petty thing that no one else willl care. You notice how no one else has said anything about it? It's because no one else gives a fuck.

Heaven forbid you quote or link to a previous post, that would be too much to ask, huh?

How would you like it if someone responded the same to you? Oh, let me guess, you wouldn't say anything like that because you are too amazing to ever have any flaws. I can't imagine.

If I can say you may have just ruined someone's impression of your side in this discussion because of your actions. It was a chance to inform someone and educate them and you failed. Congrats.


If I get infracted I take it with pride, that needed to be said.

 

[Phantom]

Also I am done with this thread. See that? I got frustrated, but I realize I said my due and am done.

 

[shy ♡]

I must be misusing these words then-- in the context of the post I'm using them to mean being a man/woman.

I apologize for being so terrible with these terms!

How in the world is feminine/masculine equivalent to female/male? You are basically saying that women are always feminine and men are always masculine.

Hey, he's just asking a question; there's no need to be snooty about it. It's a good thing that he wants to try and understand this stuff, rather than sweeping it under the rug like so many other people do.

Look, I am not here to give out cookies to people for doing the basic minimum. If he wants to learn, he can a) read the thread, b) google, c) try wording his questions in a way that makes sense and is non-offensive.

Like I said, trying to go through the badly written thesis that is this thread is frustrating. He just wants to get to the point. Also you know what? You don't own this thread. There's also this little ignore function believe it or not that you can use. You don't HAVE to respond to people. You don't HAVE to have a say in everything that goes on. Maybe other people want to answer. It's nice to have someone truly interested instead of arguing and yet you seem to want to turn it into an argument by degrading people because they don't want to trudge through 8 pages of petty arguments, or angry rebuttles to try to find something that isn't one of the previous.

You don't want to write it again? Then don't! And don't assume that you speak for everyone here, because you do not. Maybe someone wanted to answer that question that you tag 'infuriatingly dull'.

Did you have to post that you were frustrated by it? Did the world need to know? Does it have anything, ANYTHING, to contribute to the topic? No. Yes. I can understand why you would be frustrated, but there are times when you act on frustration, and there are times where you just don't say anything because it is such a fucking petty thing that no one else willl care. You notice how no one else has said anything about it? It's because no one else gives a fuck.

Heaven forbid you quote or link to a previous post, that would be too much to ask, huh?

How would you like it if someone responded the same to you? Oh, let me guess, you wouldn't say anything like that because you are too amazing to ever have any flaws. I can't imagine.

If I can say you may have just ruined someone's impression of your side in this discussion because of your actions. It was a chance to inform someone and educate them and you failed. Congrats.


If I get infracted I take it with pride, that needed to be said.

Point by point.

One: I just reread the entire thread (which, by the way, is four pages, not gaspeightpagesomg). It is not that difficult.

No, I don't have to respond. I don't see your point. The fact that I don't have to respond does not eliminate my option of responding. I also do not see anyone else replying to him, and the fact that I answered does not prevent them from doing so, so that is a moot point. I also never mentioned speaking for everyone, ever, so again, moot point.

Again, no, I did not 'have' to say that I was infuriated, etc. I still don't see the logic in this reasoning; the fact that I didn't have to does not eliminate my desire to. Clearly, I wanted to vent that I was frustrated by his question. So I did. Clearly, I thought it contributed the fact that it was a petty question and he should have read through the thread. You're free to disagree, but it is a fact that that question was asked many times before, and answered many times before, so his question was redundant. (Also: do you have to write any of your posts? What does that mean, having to say something? You have to or you'll die...?)

Why should I have to find posts/quotes/links when he couldn't be bothered to? Why is the burden on me?

I'm not sure what you mean, 'how would you like it if someone responded the same to you'. If I wrote that question? I would be deserving of such a response. In another scenario, if I got an annoyed response? That seems to be this scenario, in which case I am bemused by your response, because it seems ridiculous and completely miscalculated. If I felt any of your points were just, I might feel otherwise, but. I don't.

As for your last point; I think that is something that needs speaking about. It is not my place to earn allies. If someone wants to, you know, be a good ally, good for them. But I don't have to act like a goodie-two-shoes, for lack of a better phrase, to earn it. They should be allies because, you know, it's the right thing. If they are dissuaded because someone is bitter? Then they were not allies to begin with.

So if Karkat decides he does not want to be an ally because he dislikes my attitude? I don't think that is a big loss.

 

[Zero Moment]

Uhh... not to pick nits but...

It /is/ 8 pages long.
So....

 

[shy ♡]

?? Maybe I have the amount of posts-per-page set differently. Huh.

 

[ultraviolet]

Look, I am not here to give out cookies to people for doing the basic minimum. If he wants to learn, he can a) read the thread, b) google, c) try wording his questions in a way that makes sense and is non-offensive.

I'm not asking you to; I am asking you to not act like an asshole. There is a difference between 'giving cookies' and not acting rude and condescending when someone asks a reasonable question. You need to understand that stuff like this isn't basic knowledge for everyone. This thread is so people ask questions; you don't get to tell people to go and google stuff when this is what the thread is for.

Also, he didn't mean to be offensive and apologised. If you can't get over that it was an accident and that he's sorry, that's kind of your problem, sorry. :/

Why should I have to find posts/quotes/links when he couldn't be bothered to? Why is the burden on me?

it's not; you didn't have to post at all, and his original post had only been up for a couple of hours. if you're only going to post to eyeroll in written form and subtly call him a moron, don't.

As for your last point; I think that is something that needs speaking about. It is not my place to earn allies. If someone wants to, you know, be a good ally, good for them. But I don't have to act like a goodie-two-shoes, for lack of a better phrase, to earn it. They should be allies because, you know, it's the right thing. If they are dissuaded because someone is bitter? Then they were not allies to begin with.

So if Karkat decides he does not want to be an ally because he dislikes my attitude? I don't think that is a big loss.

okay, what? Nobody is asking you to earn allies, what I don't understand is how you expect absolutely anybody to sympathise or support gender issues like this if you're going to be unecessarily rude. Why should anyone support quiltbag stuff if the discussions are going to primarily consist of eye-rolling, sighing and being an asshole when someone asks a question? How do you expect anyone to learn anything? it's completely short-sighted to go 'well, if they're not going to be an ally because of how I acted, they wouldn't be one anyway'; you're just pushing off the blame onto them when you're the one being rude and condescending for practically no reason. Also, it's completely unfair to dismiss Karkat out of the discussion because he doesn't like your attitude - you're not the only person here who likes to talk about this stuff. Your attitude isn't representative of everyone else's.

I wanted this thread to be inclusive for people who aren't well-versed in feminism and gender and so on. You don't get to come into this thread an act all huffy for no good reason, I'm sorry.

I am actually shaking with anger at this. I'm really disappointed that this is the only way we can seem to have good discourse about gender on this forum.

 

[Phantom]

I know I wasn't going to talk here anymore but...

UV I love you.

By the way Pathos, now it's 9 pages long!

tl;dr Let me sum it up; Pathos, just shut up.

 

[ultraviolet]

I know I wasn't going to talk here anymore but...

UV I love you.

By the way Pathos, now it's 9 pages long!

tl;dr Let me sum it up; Pathos, just shut up.

look, I get you're annoyed. but really, this is unnecessary.

 

[Phantom]

I was explaining the entirety of my post. Sorry, I misunderstood, they said they didn't understand, so I summed it up in less than five words.



*offers apology cookie to UV*

 

[shy ♡]

I'm not asking you to; I am asking you to not act like an asshole. There is a difference between 'giving cookies' and not acting rude and condescending when someone asks a reasonable question. You need to understand that stuff like this isn't basic knowledge for everyone. This thread is so people ask questions; you don't get to tell people to go and google stuff when this is what the thread is for.

Also, he didn't mean to be offensive and apologised. If you can't get over that it was an accident and that he's sorry, that's kind of your problem, sorry. :/

it's not; you didn't have to post at all, and his original post had only been up for a couple of hours. if you're only going to post to eyeroll in written form and subtly call him a moron, don't.

I don't think I was actually all that rude to him; I simply asked him to read the thread, where the question had been previously asked an answered. I do think it got out of hand. I don't understand why that is not a valid response. Also, I am not/was not calling him a moron, I was calling him lazy; I don't believe he is stupid at all.

Also, I really don't think an apology is fix-all for everything; I don't mean to say he committed heinous crimes but apologies don't erase the way people act or think. Apologies mean very little to me, honestly, I care more about what people do.

okay, what? Nobody is asking you to earn allies, what I don't understand is how you expect absolutely anybody to sympathise or support gender issues like this if you're going to be unecessarily rude. Why should anyone support quiltbag stuff if the discussions are going to primarily consist of eye-rolling, sighing and being an asshole when someone asks a question? How do you expect anyone to learn anything? it's completely short-sighted to go 'well, if they're not going to be an ally because of how I acted, they wouldn't be one anyway'; you're just pushing off the blame onto them when you're the one being rude and condescending for practically no reason.

Because it's the right thing to do. That's like saying 'why should people support freedom' or 'why should people support having food' or 'why should people support air'. Not supporting it is wrong.

Also, again, I don't believe my response was rude.

Also, it's completely unfair to dismiss Karkat out of the discussion because he doesn't like your attitude - you're not the only person here who likes to talk about this stuff. Your attitude isn't representative of everyone else's.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here...? Karkat didn't even say he doesn't like my attitude, Hawke did, and Hawke insinuated that I'd lost an ally. But I'm still not sure what you're saying...

I wanted this thread to be inclusive for people who aren't well-versed in feminism and gender and so on. You don't get to come into this thread an act all huffy for no good reason, I'm sorry.

I am actually shaking with anger at this. I'm really disappointed that this is the only way we can seem to have good discourse about gender on this forum.

I'm really sorry I made you feel that way. Honestly, I am. Please realize that I felt that way too. When people say that masculinity/femininity = male/female, it is honestly infuriating to me. Honestly, I'm angry now, and I feel like my anger has no place in this forum, or this thread; I feel like this is a thread about gender, and I felt like I had a place in this thread, but now I don't because someone who has no idea what gender even is stepped in.

Whatever, at this point anything I say will be pointless, so.

ETA: Hawke, good job of leaving.