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Heaven

Butterfree

Still loves Joltik, though!
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I was just finding this thought I wrote for an English writing class a while ago and figured it might be food for some interesting thought since, unusually, we do have a couple of theists frequenting the debate forum at the moment.

This is not a validity-of-religion debate. The existence or nonexistence of God is irrelevant here; please do not bring it up. This thread is about the conceptual problems with Heaven as at least Christianity understands it: it is a philosophical/theological debate, not a scientific one. Before you read this, just assume for the sake of the argument that God exists and that people can go to Heaven when they die.

This is not a theological article, but a philosophical thought experiment, intended not to describe the honest beliefs of any groups or individuals but merely to play with concepts that are rarely approached critically and to hopefully encourage some thought.

Heaven, we are told, is a place of perfection. After death, provided we avoid landing ourselves in Hell, we are supposed to be blessed with eternal life in Paradise, where we will have perfect happiness with all our loved ones forevermore. Or so we think.

The most glaring problem with this image of Heaven is the existence of Hell. Hell is quite a problematic concept in Christian mythology in general, given all of Jesus’ emphasis on forgiveness and that sinners are not irredeemable; however, when considered along with its blissful counterpart, the outcome can stray from the territory of slightly awkward to downright disturbing – not the tortures of Hell itself, which could of course be considered disturbing in their own right, but as seen from the point of view of an inhabitant of Heaven.

It just so happens that elitism of the sort that existed in the time the Bible was written is not quite so prominent in our thinking today, and the concept of torture as punishment, quite justly, makes most of us slightly squeamish. People generally wave this fact off when considering Hell, generally with something in the direction of everyone who is in Hell truly having done what they were condemned there for, or that human authorities have no right to torture but God does (a sentiment I personally find rather disturbing as well, but let us not stray too far from the subject). However, this becomes increasingly awkward once you actually are dead and in Heaven. I have heard some notable man from the Middle Ages quoted as saying that the greatest bliss of Paradise is the thought of all the sinners burning in Hell. The concept of Hell works great if you share this sentiment with him; not so much if you are the average person of today, who will find this attitude quite appallingly selfish and sadistic.

In other words, the first problem of Heaven is the inevitable knowledge that other people, perhaps even people you know personally, are in Hell receiving some considerably less pleasant treatment than you are. I do not think I could personally be at rest in Heaven knowing that others less fortunate are at the same time being tortured, and cannot help thinking I would not be very comfortable in the company of anyone who does not see a problem with that. And Heaven cannot be a very perfect place if one is constantly bothered by such thoughts, can it? This is even worse if, as the Lutheran Church would have it, your fate after death rests exclusively on your faith, your actions in life be damned. Thus, if you have a friend who is not a Christian, you can expect to have to know of them in Hell, even if they were wonderful people, while lunatics who murder doctors in the name of God will be up there with you – to say nothing of if you are not a Christian yourself. This strikes me as grossly unjust, and if true, I cannot say I could easily enjoy myself in Heaven with a God with such skewed priorities, even if I and everyone I knew actually were Christians.

One of the more obvious solutions to this problem, of course, is to eliminate Hell completely, which many do in this day and age when it does not seem quite so natural to assume that an omnipotent, benevolent deity would have people cast into an eternal torture chamber for petty sins. Thus some have interpreted Jesus’ crucifixion as effectively allowing everyone but the most remorseless of criminals into Heaven. However, this Heaven, when taken literally as an actual place where people either are or are not, still has the other problem, namely the problem of people.

People age. They change. They have desires often in direct conflict with those of other people. It would be shallow to assume that Heaven is a blissful place merely for containing good food and no pain, death or disease; a person cannot ordinarily be truly happy without the company of others, and this is where Heaven becomes quite awkward again. You tell your child that she will one day see her grandmother in Heaven, but is Grandma happy in Heaven without her granddaughter? Or, to address the more important and insidious side of this point, will Grandma actually be interested in spending her time in Heaven making pancakes for her granddaughter? Will Grandma even be the person that the grandchild knows in the first place – after all, perhaps she hated being old and her idea of being happy in Heaven is to be in her twenties again, running off with the love of her life? And perhaps his idea of Heaven is to be with the girl he eventually left her for. It’s a no-win situation. And if people in Heaven are stuck like they were when they died, what about Alzheimer’s patients? Small children – will they never develop the full intelligence of an adult?

Somewhat more generally, if X only finds fulfillment in Y’s company but Y wants nothing more than for X to leave them alone, what happens in Heaven? Do people have free will in Heaven – and if so, how does God avoid arguments, insults, people hurting other people? And if we don’t have free will, just how heavenly can it be? What about those whose greatest ambition was to effect change on Earth – how can they be expected to selfishly appreciate the luxuries of Heaven when the mortal world is still filled with misery?

One could theorize that Heaven exists as our own private ideal world of sorts, in which all the people we know exist specifically to be with us, but this idea is rather disturbing as well if it is given some thought, simply because those are not your real friends and family; you are essentially being deceived by shallow copies of the actual people that exist only to please you. I would be very surprised if you could look me in the eye and tell me that you see nothing unsettling about this kind of Heaven. It is somewhat reminiscent of the film The Truman Show, where the titular character lives in a world created specifically for him, with everyone around him actors; while his life is fine, per se, I could only expect the average viewer to hope throughout the film that he will discover the lie he is living and break free from it. If Heaven were something to this effect, I can only cringe at the thought of ending up there.

Then what if Heaven were not really a place at all, but a state of mind: instead of experiencing anything in Heaven, we’d merely feel? This is getting pretty far from how most people would imagine Heaven, but I have heard this position argued. However, this Heaven seems like a very, very shallow one. If you are fully conscious, in fact, it could only be described as torturous: no matter how heavenly it would feel, the idea is just unquestionably extremely boring, and to be devoid of real mental stimulation while feeling meaninglessly good for all of eternity would be enough to drive anybody crazy. (I read a news article once about a woman suffering from constant orgasms; it was considered a handicap, and I cannot imagine her idea of Heaven would have her anything but rid of the condition.) If we are not fully conscious enough to appreciate the boredom and become restless, then Heaven could only be described as an extended drug trip – hardly what anyone could consider the epitome of perfection, and in fact quite defeating the point of afterlife to begin with: surely, if we are ever put into a non-fully conscious mental state for the rest of eternity, it cannot be that much different in principle from ceasing to exist altogether – I can hardly say I would miss the blissful feeling if I just skipped the entire afterlife deal.

But the most important image of Heaven to consider has to be the image of an actual place in some other plane of existence containing actual people (or manifestations of their souls) in perfect harmony with one another. It is how your average person will imagine Heaven to be, and it is the most flawed one, as it contradicts the idea of free will, which surely must be central to anyone’s idea of a perfect Heaven. You cannot put millions of people in a place with free will and expect them all to get along in a world of sunshine and rainbows. If people have free will, they can be unhappy, and without the contrast of truly bad outside conditions, the perfections of Heaven will quickly become mundane and cease to give any pleasure.

Can there really be a Heaven that is so much more perfect than the mortal world?
 
This is a really well-written essay, although I think the reaction of anyone who has thought about it for more than ten minutes can probably be summarized as "no shit". Maybe it's just me?

But uh for some reason this brings back a really specific memory of my sixth grade social studies class. We were talking about the Greek Underworld and the paradise section of it (forget what the name was - the Elysian Fields? or was that the neutral section of it? whatever) and he said "everyone there is happy". I said something like "how can everyone be happy, what if someone starts causing problems there, then fighting will break out?" His response was something like "Why would anyone do that? People only cause trouble because they are unhappy themselves. They steal things because they want things they don't have. They hurt other people because someone put them in a bad mood earlier. etc." This guy wasn't the smartest teacher of all time but I thought this quote was insightful and really made me think as a twelve year old.

So uh I think your problem is that you appear to have a very cartoonish view of heaven. Golden palaces on clouds, angels walking around in white robes, people hanging out with their grandparents. Obviously your arguments would certainly apply here - this is basically just Earth but with nicer buildings and better food, and you're there for an eternity. Of course strife would ensue eventually, of course things would start following apart.

But then you realize that God is, in the eyes of a Christian, capable of anything. And this means anything. There is no reason why heaven has to be anything like Earth, or even anything like the cartoonish heaven we humans dreamed up. Our human minds cannot imagine all the possibilities that a theoritical God can, we can only extrapolate from what we currently know. To us, it is impossible to imagine a society where we are happy, with our loved ones, not bored, enjoy living eternally, and continue to have free will, but for an omnipotent God, it is possible. You can't imagine it, but compared to God's omniscience, your brain is feeble and capable of almost nothing, so I guess you're just going to have to trust God on this one.

Now obviously I don't believe this, or in heaven, but I'm playing devil's advocate and I think that this is what a theist might say, provided they had thought about the issue.
 
But then you realize that God is, in the eyes of a Christian, capable of anything. And this means anything. There is no reason why heaven has to be anything like Earth, or even anything like the cartoonish heaven we humans dreamed up. Our human minds cannot imagine all the possibilities that a theoritical God can, we can only extrapolate from what we currently know. To us, it is impossible to imagine a society where we are happy, with our loved ones, not bored, enjoy living eternally, and continue to have free will, but for an omnipotent God, it is possible. You can't imagine it, but compared to God's omniscience, your brain is feeble and capable of almost nothing, so I guess you're just going to have to trust God on this one.

Now obviously I don't believe this, or in heaven, but I'm playing devil's advocate and I think that this is what a theist might say, provided they had thought about the issue.
That'd be the argument I'd try to put forth, yes.
 
But uh for some reason this brings back a really specific memory of my sixth grade social studies class. We were talking about the Greek Underworld and the paradise section of it (forget what the name was - the Elysian Fields? or was that the neutral section of it? whatever) and he said "everyone there is happy". I said something like "how can everyone be happy, what if someone starts causing problems there, then fighting will break out?" His response was something like "Why would anyone do that? People only cause trouble because they are unhappy themselves. They steal things because they want things they don't have. They hurt other people because someone put them in a bad mood earlier. etc." This guy wasn't the smartest teacher of all time but I thought this quote was insightful and really made me think as a twelve year old.
To a certain extent, this is very true. However, only some human problems are caused by other existing problems. People have disagreements and basic conflicts of interest that are independent of whether they're in a bad mood or have serious existing problems: again, does Grandma make pancakes for her grandchild in Heaven or does she run off with her lover? This isn't a matter of golden gates on fluffy clouds; it's a matter of people, and my argument is that if Heaven contains the actual people actually interacting with one another in some sense there will be conflicts of interest, whereas if it does not contain actual people actually interacting with one another, there is a sinister, unsettling Truman Show-esque quality to it. You're the second person I've seen dismiss this sort of question as "cartoony" and I still don't understand why you must connect the people/not people dilemma to golden gates on fluffy clouds at all.

But then you realize that God is, in the eyes of a Christian, capable of anything. And this means anything. There is no reason why heaven has to be anything like Earth, or even anything like the cartoonish heaven we humans dreamed up. Our human minds cannot imagine all the possibilities that a theoritical God can, we can only extrapolate from what we currently know. To us, it is impossible to imagine a society where we are happy, with our loved ones, not bored, enjoy living eternally, and continue to have free will, but for an omnipotent God, it is possible. You can't imagine it, but compared to God's omniscience, your brain is feeble and capable of almost nothing, so I guess you're just going to have to trust God on this one.
But free will can't really be manipulated, by omnipotent forces or otherwise, or it ceases to actually be free will. I don't care how omnipotent God is; if he can make me act in some way that is not how I would act without his intervention, I don't call that free will. I'm sure God can imagine it just fine, but I'm not omnipotent, I'm on Earth right now and right now I'm finding the idea of this Heaven completely disturbing.

I would also argue that if I happen to cease to find it disturbing once I'm in that Heaven thanks to whatever God's omnipotence is doing, that's a kind of brainwashing, which only makes it more disturbing. God can't (or, well, theoretically he could, but he doesn't) wave his hand and make it not seem disturbing to me here right now on Earth. My question is, isn't this disturbing to people who actually believe in Heaven? Do you (as in the you on Earth right now) want to go to a Heaven in which you are brainwashed? Does it honestly not bother you simply because you know by the time you get there you'll be brainwashed into loving it?
 
Heaven could be a useful construct if people were worthy of being in heaven. Where does God draw the line of who are worthy and who are not? Is that at his discretion? If it is, then why would humans bother being good in this life (because obviously their actions have no way of influencing their position in heaven) or does God decide on our actions how we get there (and in that case, what standards is he using to decide how we get in?)

Heaven's only fair if you have a level playing field. But we don't have a level playing field, and what's more, some moralities that are nasty under one circumstance might have been useful under another. To me, heaven seems like a completely arbitrary form of nepotism: if God likes you, you're in. If not, you're not. What about someone who doesn't have a cognitive idea of what moral is?

Far from the problems you address: even getting into heaven seems to me like an arbitrary "I like you, so I'll pick you" kind of thing. Even using the Bible as a moral guideline, it would be entirely ambiguous who gets in and who doesn't.
 
Heaven could be a useful construct if people were worthy of being in heaven. Where does God draw the line of who are worthy and who are not? Is that at his discretion? If it is, then why would humans bother being good in this life (because obviously their actions have no way of influencing their position in heaven) or does God decide on our actions how we get there (and in that case, what standards is he using to decide how we get in?)

Heaven's only fair if you have a level playing field. But we don't have a level playing field, and what's more, some moralities that are nasty under one circumstance might have been useful under another. To me, heaven seems like a completely arbitrary form of nepotism: if God likes you, you're in. If not, you're not. What about someone who doesn't have a cognitive idea of what moral is?

Far from the problems you address: even getting into heaven seems to me like an arbitrary "I like you, so I'll pick you" kind of thing. Even using the Bible as a moral guideline, it would be entirely ambiguous who gets in and who doesn't.

Using the Bible as a guideline, everyone goes into heaven if they choose to.
To a certain extent, this is very true. However, only some human problems are caused by other existing problems. People have disagreements and basic conflicts of interest that are independent of whether they're in a bad mood or have serious existing problems: [1] again, does Grandma make pancakes for her grandchild in Heaven or does she run off with her lover? This isn't a matter of golden gates on fluffy clouds; it's a matter of people, and my argument is that if Heaven contains the actual people actually interacting with one another in some sense there will be conflicts of interest, whereas if it does not contain actual people actually interacting with one another, there is a sinister, unsettling Truman Show-esque quality to it. You're the second person I've seen dismiss this sort of question as "cartoony" and I still don't understand why you must connect the people/not people dilemma to golden gates on fluffy clouds at all.
Grandma splits into multiple soul avatars to keep company for each person? I mean, how do we know the mechanics of interface with other people in heaven? I mean, who says she can't do it all at once, or even a concept of "all at once" exists in a timeless realm?

But free will can't really be manipulated, by omnipotent forces or otherwise, or it ceases to actually be free will. I don't care how omnipotent God is; if he can make me act in some way that is not how I would act without his intervention, I don't call that free will. I'm sure God can imagine it just fine, but I'm not omnipotent, I'm on Earth right now and right now I'm finding the idea of this Heaven completely disturbing.
In my understanding of theology and assuming it is correct: You will be presented with a choice of whether or not you won't to go to heaven. You can just not go if thats what you decide.

I would also argue that if I happen to cease to find it disturbing once I'm in that Heaven thanks to whatever God's omnipotence is doing, that's a kind of brainwashing, which only makes it more disturbing. God can't (or, well, theoretically he could, but he doesn't) wave his hand and make it not seem disturbing to me here right now on Earth. My question is, isn't this disturbing to people who actually believe in Heaven? Do you (as in the you on Earth right now) want to go to a Heaven in which you are brainwashed? Does it honestly not bother you simply because you know by the time you get there you'll be brainwashed into loving it?
I am not following your line of thought. Why would you have to be brainwashed? You are happy as a person there because you have had the experience of life to help you build yourself for heaven. This is why people-originated problems would not be much of a problem. Assuming the mechanics of heaven work as I believe them to, you would literally have eternity to work out your personal problem and refine your social interaction skills. You wouldn't need to be brainwashed, you just have eternity to figure out all of your mental-personal problems, as does everyone else. I mean, with an unlimited amount of time (or rather no time), think of how much better you could be at the end of it.
 
Using the Bible as a guideline, everyone goes into heaven if they choose to.

I'm just going to reply to this one sentence and say it makes no sense. "No thanks, god, I'd rather burn in an eternal fire than live in paradise." That is 99.9% surely NOT a method any god, were there one, would choose.
 
I'm just going to reply to this one sentence and say it makes no sense. "No thanks, god, I'd rather burn in an eternal fire than live in paradise." That is 99.9% surely NOT a method any god, were there one, would choose.

Yes, but deprivation of that choice is a violation of free will.
 
Or he could just say like, "free will= do good, go to heaven, do bad, go to hell, your choice."
 
I am not following your line of thought. Why would you have to be brainwashed? You are happy as a person there because you have had the experience of life to help you build yourself for heaven. This is why people-originated problems would not be much of a problem. Assuming the mechanics of heaven work as I believe them to, you would literally have eternity to work out your personal problem and refine your social interaction skills. You wouldn't need to be brainwashed, you just have eternity to figure out all of your mental-personal problems, as does everyone else. I mean, with an unlimited amount of time (or rather no time), think of how much better you could be at the end of it.
I'll take a stab at explaining this. Unless bliss consists of a solitary, drugged-out haze, the task of having everyone be happy would seem to be complicated by how varied and contradicting different people's independently innocuous desires are.

For example: Mr. Gumshoe and Mr. Edgeworth are in heaven. Mr. Gumshoe's desire is to pal around with Mr. Edgeworth for all of eternity, whereas Mr. Edgeworth's desire is to not spend time with Gumshoe. Can both get what they want? How, and is the method by which this is achieved moral? How about honest?

Perhaps more problematic, Mr. Fawles is in heaven. He adores Ms. Hawthorne, a person who ended up in hell. How does his knowledge of Ms. Hawthorne's eternal damnation impact his eternal bliss? Barring an enforced ignorance or brainwashing to make them cease to care, moral people would be greatly distressed to arrive in heaven and be offered bliss while aware of the cosmically enforced eternal suffering around them.

I don't understand the interplay of personal and interpersonal fulfillment and desire required for this to work. Wanting people not to suffer, or at least not suffer for forever rather than, say, a few years, doesn't strike me as a mental or personal issue that ought to be disposed of!
 
Using the Bible as a guideline, everyone goes into heaven if they choose to.

This still doesn't work. What if people who have been plain arseholes choose to go to heaven? Can you honestly call a place Heaven if it's full of assholes who chose to go there?

Moreover, if people choose not to go to Heaven (even though they are good people), the place full of good people will become heaven, and as such, people that would choose to go to heaven will now not choose to go to heaven (since all the good people didn't either). Not to mention that the whole thing will switch again. It just doesn't work. Choice is not a good criterion for getting into heaven.

Ok, so you solve this problem by not letting anybody who isn't an asshole choose whether they want to go to Heaven. But then you end up with the same morality problem.

If we all have free will to go to heaven, then, still, why should we? Arseholes don't stop being arseholes once they're in heaven.
 
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I'd also like to add that, if heaven is real, it is definitely very unfair for anyone to be forced to hell for ALL OF ETERNITY based on what they did for ~70 years. That would be like if on Earth, we were either pampered or tortured for our entire lives based on how we acted in the womb. Only, you know, infinitely more so.
 
A lot of complaints.

I don't believe anyone will be in Hell, actually. And whatever their earthly dispositions or morality was, eternity can do a lot for self-improvement.
 
Replying to these because they really bother me.

Grandma splits into multiple soul avatars to keep company for each person? I mean, how do we know the mechanics of interface with other people in heaven? I mean, who says she can't do it all at once, or even a concept of "all at once" exists in a timeless realm?

What if Grandma doesn't want to cook pancakes? What if cooking pancakes for her granddaughter makes her unhappy? If she does split, that means a part of her that is cooking pancakes will be eternally unhappy.

And thus that doesn't work.


I am not following your line of thought. Why would you have to be brainwashed? You are happy as a person there because you have had the experience of life to help you build yourself for heaven. This is why people-originated problems would not be much of a problem. Assuming the mechanics of heaven work as I believe them to, you would literally have eternity to work out your personal problem and refine your social interaction skills. You wouldn't need to be brainwashed, you just have eternity to figure out all of your mental-personal problems, as does everyone else. I mean, with an unlimited amount of time (or rather no time), think of how much better you could be at the end of it.

I don't understand your point. What you seem to be saying is that people are going to be miserable in heaven when they first enter, and they have an eternity to work out the problems between them (pancakes or running away?), form a compromise, and... what.

Which means heaven is kind of a miserable place, if it exists.
 
Eh, gonna bring a different perspective to this because. Judaism's perspective on the matter (which I have to remind everyone is the original! ahhh) is that there is no 'hell'; people who deserve to go to hell go to a hell-like place for iirc 38 days. Likewise there is no heaven. There's just the messiah, at which point all the dead come back to life and everyone's happy (although how that makes everyone happy is questionable, as well as how we'll all fit in our already overpopulated world, but w/e).

Yeah, Christianity really isn't the only religion in the world. :v
 
Eh, gonna bring a different perspective to this because. Judaism's perspective on the matter (which I have to remind everyone is the original! ahhh) is that there is no 'hell'; people who deserve to go to hell go to a hell-like place for iirc 38 days. Likewise there is no heaven. There's just the messiah, at which point all the dead come back to life and everyone's happy (although how that makes everyone happy is questionable, as well as how we'll all fit in our already overpopulated world, but w/e).

Yeah, Christianity really isn't the only religion in the world. :v
Stupid question incoming:
I was in a play last year that took place in like 70CE and at one point a Jewish character discusses the afterlife. He talks about the Sheol and explains that after you die you just sort of go to a dark and silent place to hang around with every other soul for the rest of eternity (dust to dust etc etc) until the messiah.
Is this in any way accurate because I sort of thought this was it but from what I can tell this doesn't really seem to be what a lot of Jews believe in?
 
Stupid question incoming:
I was in a play last year that took place in like 70CE and at one point a Jewish character discusses the afterlife. He talks about the Sheol and explains that after you die you just sort of go to a dark and silent place to hang around with every other soul for the rest of eternity (dust to dust etc etc) until the messiah.
Is this in any way accurate because I sort of thought this was it but from what I can tell this doesn't really seem to be what a lot of Jews believe in?

Idk, I think most Jews come up with a personal system according to what the Torah instructs; the whole 'you're dead when you're dead' thing isn't a very common belief among spiritual people so they tend to think uh, idk, more spiritual things. Since there's no heaven/hell there really aren't any rules on it and it depends more on your family customs, etc. For example my sister is big on ghosts/spirits and stuff, whereas my brother likes the idea of reincarnation. As a rule though, the afterlife in general isn't very important to Jews; we focus more on this life. That's actually a big part of Judaism, to not live your life for what happens after you die, but for what happens while you're alive.
 
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