Masculism

[Koori Renchuu]

Link with the Wikipedia page here.

I believe that this movement is needed in the society today. But I want to bring it up to all of you who may not have heard about this movement.

Do you believe that this movement is necessary? If not, why not? If so, why? Are the issues brought up by the movement valid?

 

[Blastoise Fortooate]

Well, obviously we need equality, although it seems like feminism has a bit more on its list of complaints than this does. No reason not to have both movement, though.

It is terrible that the mother gets the kids more often, definitely. That needs immediate fixing, I think.

 

[surskitty]

It is terrible that the mother gets the kids more often, definitely. That needs immediate fixing, I think.

Why so?

http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/pas/dv.html

Phyllis Chesler interviewed 60 mothers involved in a custody dispute and found that fathers who contest custody are more likely than their wives to win (p. 65). In 82% of the disputed custody cases fathers achieved sole custody despite the fact that only 13% had been involved in child care activities prior to divorce (p. 79 tbl. 5). Moreover, 59% of fathers who won custody litigation had abused their wives, and 50% of fathers who obtained custody through private negotiations had abused their wives (p. 80 tbl. 6).

The Committee for Justice for Women and the Orange County, North Carolina, Women's Coalition. (1991). Contested Custody Cases In Orange County, North Carolina, Trial Courts, 1983-1987: Gender Bias, The Family And The Law. Author.

The Committee for Justice for Women studied custody awards in Orange County, North Carolina over a five year period between 1983 and 1987. They reported that:

"...in all contested custody cases, 84% of the fathers in the study were granted sole or mandated joint custody. In all cases where sole custody was awarded, fathers were awarded custody in 79% of the cases. In 26% of the cases fathers were either proven or alleged to have physically and sexually abused their children."

This study shows that victims of domestic violence (DV) are greatly disadvantaged when states require mediation of child custody disputes. The investigators empirically evaluated outcomes and found that mediators failed to recognize and report DV in 56.9% of the DV cases. The court's screening form failed to indicate DV in at least 14.7% of the violent cases. Mediation resulted in poor outcomes for DV victims in terms of protections, such as supervised visitation and protected child exchanges. As a result, the capacity of mediators to focus on the child's best interest is called into question.

I'm pretty sure there's already a movement for gender equality. It's called 'feminism'.

 

[Blastoise Fortooate]

Hmm.

I suppose I meant, more specifically, that it's terrible that there is a perception in society that women make more capable parents than fathers.

 

[goldenquagsire]

I really don't see the point of masculism as a movement. As surskittailsy pointed out, feminism already exists to address gender inequality, and supporting feminism equates to destroying prescriptive gender roles anyway. So, all the expectations that men should be the main breadwinner, women should be the main provider of childcare etc. that masculists complain about are also opposed by feminists. Furthermore, there's a rather seedy undertone to the whole business - it seems to be downplaying the fact that men have privilege and are generally speaking better off in society than women are.

Some of the concerns of the movement are legitimate. We should be less dismissive of male victims of rape and we should do more to deal with prostate cancer. But those can be addressed individually, they don't need a pro-masculine movement behind them.

Hmm.

I suppose I meant, more specifically, that it's terrible that there is a perception in society that women make more capable parents than fathers.

It's becoming less of an issue, really. Fathers are expected to be a lot more involved in the raising of their child than they were a few decades ago.

 

[surskitty]

Hmm.

I suppose I meant, more specifically, that it's terrible that there is a perception in society that women make more capable parents than fathers.

I'm not sure that's necessarily the main factor in this. If that's what the main perception at work was, then that first study quoted wouldn't make any sense.

It's more that there's a perception in society that if a father tries at all, he's being exceptional. If a mother does anything, she's just being a mother. The mother's more likely to get custody, but if the father disputes either her getting sole custody or them getting joint custody, he is overwhelmingly likely to get sole custody regardless of if he actually did any parenting while they were together. A man's intent to parent is more exceptional than actually, you know, parenting, because he's the one doing it.

 

[Zhorken]

And insofar as people do think women are inherently supposed to be better at raising kids than men, that issue does fall under the umbrella of feminism.

 

[Koori Renchuu]

What about the lack of seriousness male abuse victims have met about their situations? Feminism has done nothing to solve this. In the U.S., the Violence Against Women Act is geared toward the female abuse victims. There is no equivalent of this law for men. In addition, there is on Office for Woman's Health in the U.S., but no Office for Man's Health. Masculine health has also had less funding, even though men have a shorter lifespan.

 

[Saith]

I'm too tired to go into my opinions on the subject right now, so I'll just throw this link in to the debate. I guess I should say that while I agree with some of the stuff in the channel, I don't agree with all of it.
He's pretty misogynistic, and I absolutely loathe that Angry Harry guy, but the channel makes a few valid points about how society is pretty anti-male.

You just have to look at domestic-abuse charities to see that.
The main ones are indisputably against guys, and portray all men as evil, whereas the charities set up to help men are, well, I'm pretty sure they get maybe a fiver a month. Maybe.

EDIT:

What about the lack of seriousness male abuse victims have met about their situations? Feminism has done nothing to solve this. In the U.S., the Violence Against Women Act is geared toward the female abuse victims. There is no equivalent of this law for men. In addition, there is on Office for Woman's Health in the U.S., but no Office for Man's Health. Masculine health has also had less funding, even though men have a shorter lifespan.

In the UK, Domestic-Abuse laws are frighteningly similar to anti-terrorism laws. If a woman complains of domestic-abuse, police are allowed to arrest the man, regardless of whether evidence is presented or not.

 

[Koori Renchuu]

There's also the topic of Male Genital Mutilation, aka circumcision. Women fought to eliminate Female Genital Mutilation. If feminism were about equality, women would have spoken out about the male equivalent of their plight. Men lose half of the nerves in their genitals by such practice.

 

[Squirrel]

There's also the topic of Male Genital Mutilation, aka circumcision. Women fought to eliminate Female Genital Mutilation. If feminism were about equality, women would have spoken out about the male equivalent of their plight. Men lose half of the nerves in their genitals by such practice.

I'm pretty sure that girls can die from FGM when it isn't done properly.

 

[Saith]

Did no one watch that video I linked? Q.Q

And, I mean, I guess on the topic of GM, here we go! ♥

 

[Koori Renchuu]

Plenty of feminists have spoken out against it. It's a pointless procedure, it's a mutilation. And yet, FGM is an incomparably worse mutilation. They aren't equivalent and are you really going to argue that feminism is not about equality o.o

read ♥

There are various different types of FGM. Some are horrific, others are much more restrained. Either way, when done on a child, it is mutilation that causes immense pain. The entire idea is to eliminate pain from the equation. The United Nations doesn't educate on Male Genital Mutilation, does it? In fact, it supports it.

Additionally, abused men are refused entry to almost all domestic violence shelters. However, their pets are getting an abuse shelter. Secondly, men who do call the police often get arrested. In addition, men must register for the draft in the United States in order to get finacial aid for college. Women have no such rule. If feminists truly had equality in mind, these articles would not exist.

Did no one watch that video I linked? Q.Q

And, I mean, I guess on the topic of GM, here we go! ♥

The two things you posted were very informative, I thank you for the contribution.

 

[surskitty]

There are various different types of FGM. Some are horrific, others are much more restrained. Either way, when done on a child, it is mutilation that causes immense pain. The entire idea is to eliminate pain from the equation. The United Nations doesn't educate on Male Genital Mutilation, does it? In fact, it supports it.

Psssst, last I checked male circumcision does not have destroying someone's ability to enjoy sex as a reason to do it. Also last I checked male circumcision is a viable treatment for certain health problems. It's terrible that people are circumcised without their consent! Feminists tend to be against this! But please stop framing them as equivalent issues.

Additionally, abused men are refused entry to almost all domestic violence shelters. However, their pets are getting an abuse shelter. Secondly, men who do call the police often get arrested.

Iiiii'm pretty sure domestic violence shelters for men exist. There are also a lot of mixed-gender shelters!

Also? I don't think cops being fuckheads says anything about feminism. In fact I'm fairly sure I read an article or two on one of the feminist blogs I follow complaining about either that case or something similar. Your point, please?

In addition, men must register for the draft in the United States in order to get finacial aid for college. Women have no such rule. If feminists truly had equality in mind, these articles would not exist.

Uh, last I checked? A lot of feminists are against registering for the draft period. Also, last I checked, the US had an all-volunteer army so while it sucks that men have to register for the draft, it's not exactly something with much of an impact on life. And there's the whole thing with only men having to register for the draft most likely being rooted in the perception that women don't belong in combat....


Are you just going down an MRA checklist? o_O

 

[Ivy Newton]

Personally I just don't like the term. Nor, for that matter, do I particularly like the term "feminist". Both seem to imply a desire for superiority of a certain gender.

I'm all for gender equality, but that's what it should be called. If it's labeled by a specific gender, the (equally valid) concerns of the other gender are likely to be ignored.

So yeah the movement is needed, but only in the sense that it should be combined with feminism so that both sides are addressed.

Although in terms of particular issues I will note that it's kinda hard to say that guys should have the ultimate say when it comes to pregnancies. I'm not saying they should have no say, but the woman is after all the one that has to carry the unborn baby around for nine months.

 

[Aletheia]

I'm all for gender equality, but that's what it should be called. If it's labeled by a specific gender, the (equally valid) concerns of the other gender are likely to be ignored.

Quoted for truth.

Also, please don't mix gender equality with this abomination.

 

[goldenquagsire]

Also, please don't mix gender equality with this abomination.

Political correctness is a ridiculous strawman invented by newspaper columnists looking for easy copy. Pretty much any story of 'PC gone mad' actually boils down to fabrication or misinterpretation.

Personally I just don't like the term. Nor, for that matter, do I particularly like the term "feminist". Both seem to imply a desire for superiority of a certain gender.

I'm all for gender equality, but that's what it should be called. If it's labeled by a specific gender, the (equally valid) concerns of the other gender are likely to be ignored.

So yeah the movement is needed, but only in the sense that it should be combined with feminism so that both sides are addressed.

If you read this thread, there's plenty of good reasons why you should support feminism rather than some fuzzy notion of 'gender equality'. Particularly this quote:

EDIT: The fact 'feminism' is more specific than 'equalism' or whatever also helps in one regard: it calls attention to a specific issue in itself. A statement like "People should be equal" is great, but because it's a very vague, high-level statement, it doesn't have a lot of power in expressing your position. Calling it feminism is saying "Women have a very disadvantaged status in modern society and we think doing something about that is important." It doesn't mean that's the only thing that's important, hence why feminists also care about males being affected by the same issues feminism deals with and feminists can also be part of the LGBT rights movement and so on (which are also named to call attention to specific issues), but calling it feminism is giving the term an immediate, significant meaning (if a potentially slightly misleading one) instead of just letting all the actual issues at hand get completely lost in a blanket term.

 

[Dannichu]

If feminists truly had equality in mind, these articles would not exist.

Um, you do realise how ridiculous this sounds, right? You could use this to argue that feminists aren't fighting for women to have equal rights, because if they did, inequality wouldn't exist. Just because [something bad] exists doesn't mean people aren't fighting it!

A little while ago, the EU (or UN or something, I don't pay that much attention) decided that it's unfair to make anyone pay more (or less) for their car insurance on the basis of gender. Currently, a young male driver will often pay twice as much to insure his first car than a young female driver (as young men are statistically far more likely to crash their cars), but this new ruling should even it out.
My university's feminist society's response to the ruling? "ABOUT FUCKING TIME. Feminists have been fighting this one for YEARS."

They're fighting the (UK) difference in retirement age, too. Maybe you'd get more done if you joined in rather than complained about how rubbish they all are.

 

[Saith]

And there's the whole thing with only men having to register for the draft most likely being rooted in the perception that women don't belong in combat...

I love it. You take the fact that men are expected by society to kill and die for women as soon as a threat occurs, and you spin it around to make it seem like the women are being oppressed.

Iiiii'm pretty sure domestic violence shelters for men exist. There are also a lot of mixed-gender shelters!

Oh, they do, they do.
But!
Let's take a look at some charities, shall we!

The womens' charity! Refuge!
See, it's for women. It's not equal, it's for women.
It specifically mentions 'women and children' over and over again, and yet whenever a man is mentioned it's always in the form of an abusive partner.
Their page for men! :D:D:D
Yeah, so the leading charity for domestic abuse in the UK does nothing for men. At all.
Their 'Questions for men' section!
Two questions: How can I stop abusing? ('Cause all men are evil and stuff, obviously!)
And 'I'm being abused, what should I do?' Their answer to this one is 'don't hit her back because that would be domestic abuse!'

Oh and it's clearly an incredibly well-funded charity, judging by its website.

Now lets have a look at Mankind!
Yeah, they probably get, like, a fiver a week. :D

 

[ultraviolet]

And 'I'm being abused, what should I do?' Their answer to this one is 'don't hit her back because that would be domestic abuse!'

... nnno it says

Yes, men are abused too and we know how hard it can be to seek help. You may be worried that no-one will believe you or perhaps that you will be thought of as ‘less’ of a man. Speaking out about your experiences is difficult but it is the most important step towards a life without abuse. Remember, assaulting someone is a crime and you do not have to deal with it on your own.

I read that as 'assault is a crime and it is okay to speak out about it' but whatever.
additionally, a quick search led to this and this; while it is a women's help site it does link to a male domestic abuse foundation.

I'm not speaking out against your point or anything, but if you're going to reference things please don't misquote them or at least research them better.