Over 80 dead in Norway terrorist attack

[opaltiger]

Did you explain the No True Scotsman fallacy?

 

[Elliekat]

I didn't get a chance, but if she brings it up again I'll be sure to educate her.

 

[Light]

Well, that's my point, only if it's religion, it's allowed. Religion is accepted schizophrenia in numbers.

Furthermore the fact that it is not an excuse (I am aware, sigh, sigh), doesn't mean it's not used as such. So Breivik has political motives, fine. He's still motivated by hatred for Islam and perpetuating the religious divide between secular (originally pagan, then Christian) Norway and Islam.

Religion is always going to be used as an excuse for something. If you can believe in something absurd it's not a big step anymore to commit something absurd.

Voltaire, again, as I quoted before.

Politics creates so much (often violent) conflict. People do crazy things to promote what they feel are objective good decisions. Politics needs out.

 

[Karkat Vantas]

I would mourn the loss of these Norwegians, but if I did then I would be distracted, unable to never forget the tragic deaths of thousands of heroic individuals on that fateful day ten years ago at the hands of freedom-hating terrorists.

 

[Tarvos]

Politics creates so much (often violent) conflict. People do crazy things to promote what they feel are objective good decisions. Politics needs out.

Anarchy and no politics doesn't improve the situation though. Try living without a government - I guarantee you it will not last.

When people say they need God what they really mean is they need police.

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

If you ask me he is both insane and politically motivated, but I wouldn't say sociopath, because he has admitted to being wrong, just not being criminally wrong. If he was a sociopath he wouldn't be able to understand how what he did was wrong, and would never admit to it.

He said he wanted to bring about a revolution, and that in order to do so he did something atrocious, however he still said it was atrocious. A sociopath wouldn't do that, because a sociopath couldn't see anything wrong with what they did.

Well, being a sociopath doesn't make you retarded. It's not like someone who is a sociopath doesn't understand that what they did (if they do something wrong) is wrong by society's standards, they just don't feel bad about it because they rationalize it a certain way.
He pretty obviously knows that what he did is atrocious for everyone else, but it is equally obvious that he doesn't feel an ounce of sympathy for the people he murdered. He has absolutely no regards for human life, or he wouldn't go about spouting shit like 'it's better to kill too many than too few' or tear through a youth camp for the sole purpose of trying to weaken the future Socialist party.

The terrifying thing is that he knows exactly what to do to damage a nation (he also pretty much explained how to ruin the oil market in page 950-some of his manifesto) while feeling completely at ease with himself for doing so, and he's very intelligent. But at the same time, while I can understand the basic logic of his plan, it makes no sense in the long run: killing 76 young Socialists = save Western Europe from Islamic takeover. The basic logic is that with less Socialists, there won't be a strong Socialist party to pass liberal laws. The crucial flaw here is that no one in their right mind is going to sympathize with a man who killed innocent youths because he's afraid of foreigners. If anything, I'm fairly certain his plan's going to backfire spectacularly and people are going to a) scrutinize the dangerous rise of the far-right in Europe (which has frustratingly been brushed off until shit like this starts happening) and b) hopefully and probably move away.

Did anyone watch the interview on BBC Newsnight with the leader of the English Defence League? What a twat. I can't believe people like this manage to rope people into their paranoid plots, much less get actual air time, as if they're worth listening to. I especially liked his threat at the end -- 'If you don't listen to our racist concerns, maniacs might keep killing people!! You see this mass murder is all your fault tolerant people neener'

I also don't see how 76 dead is much better than 93. It's marginally better, I guess, but not much.

well, seeing that i'm in the army, people do get awards and ribbons for kill a large number people in almost the exact same style. but that's beside the point.

I never said I find this to be normal but hey if you think the army should continue to reward people for killing other people then more power to you I guess.

i suppose it's too soon for jokes. i'm not the type of person who gets on my moral high horse and act PC. i understad that it's tragic, but there is no need to be so serious about it. of course it was wrong for the shooter to do what he did, and he'll be punished for it.
but i won't take back my joke.

Haha, yeah, getting annoyed at an unfunny joke three days after a horrible massacre sure is me being overly politically correct and not a person capable of basic human empathy, what the fuck. No need to take this situation seriously? What the fuck do you take seriously then?

 

[Light]

Anarchy and no politics doesn't improve the situation though. Try living without a government - I guarantee you it will not last.

When people say they need God what they really mean is they need police.

Ohkay, Tarvos. Go ahead and try to convince the world God doesn't exist. Just realize you're killing a perfectly good baby throwing out that little bit of bad bathwater.

 

[Mendatt]

Ohkay, Tarvos. Go ahead and try to convince the world God doesn't exist. Just realize you're killing a perfectly good baby throwing out that little bit of bad bathwater.

Although there are several responses that I could think of for this, the one that comes first to mind it what?

 

[Tarvos]

Ohkay, Tarvos. Go ahead and try to convince the world God doesn't exist. Just realize you're killing a perfectly good baby throwing out that little bit of bad bathwater.

What bathwater and what am I throwing out by limiting religious influence on our lives? Surely it makes shit better, not worse? Are you seriously defending this extremist's semi political semi-religious delusions or is it just me?

 

[Saith]

What bathwater and what am I throwing out by limiting religious influence on our lives? Surely it makes shit better, not worse? Are you seriously defending this extremist's semi political semi-religious delusions or is it just me?

Religion does a bunch of bad stuff, yeah, but it also does a bunch of good stuff.
The Red Cross has done more good than 9/11 did bad, the Samaritans have helped more people than this guy killed.
No one's defending this guy, but that's a pretty terrible strawman. You see, not every religious person is a nutjob. Also, there's the fact that he, you know, was a massively far-right guy who went to a Socialist Summer Camp and murdered all the budding liberals. I didn't even know it was religiously motivated until I think this thread.
As far as I can tell, it was mostly political, so... What, should we get rid of political opponents, too? Fuck democracy, right?

 

[Light]

Religion does a bunch of bad stuff, yeah, but it also does a bunch of good stuff.
The Red Cross has done more good than 9/11 did bad, the Samaritans have helped more people than this guy killed.
No one's defending this guy, but that's a pretty terrible strawman. You see, not every religious person is a nutjob. Also, there's the fact that he, you know, was a massively far-right guy who went to a Socialist Summer Camp and murdered all the budding liberals. I didn't even know it was religiously motivated until I think this thread.
As far as I can tell, it was mostly political, so... What, should we get rid of political opponents, too? Fuck democracy, right?

Thank you.

And have you guys really never heard that expression, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"?

 

[Karkat Vantas]

Anarchy and no politics doesn't improve the situation though. Try living without a government - I guarantee you it will not last.

When people say they need God what they really mean is they need police.

Having a government is good. Having politics isn't.

The police can't promise you eternal life.

 

[Tarvos]

And have you guys really never heard that expression, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"?

I have, I just don't understand how it applies to this case.

Having a government is good. Having politics isn't.

So your legislation is made how?

The police can't promise you eternal life.

Don't want eternal life...

 

[Karkat Vantas]

What do you mean by "politics"?

 

[Saith]

I have, I just don't understand how it applies to this case.

It's easy. See, in this case, terrorism, intolerance and the restriction of freedoms is the bathwater, while rehab, charity and just general philanthropy is the baby. Don't hate on religion. I know so many people like to be hipsters and dark and edgy and whatever, but to be honest, religion has helped a lot of people.

 

[Coroxn]

It's easy. See, in this case, terrorism, intolerance and the restriction of freedoms is the bathwater, while rehab, charity and just general philanthropy is the baby. Don't hate on religion. I know so many people like to be hipsters and dark and edgy and whatever, but to be honest, religion has helped a lot of people.

Agreed, except that phrase is usually used to say that though Religious people have done horrible things, God is good and loving and kind. It's used to counter the argument of "That priest did this" and "This Pope did that" by saying that those believers were mistaken, and that God is kind, loving, and cares for all. Of course, this contradicts the Bible, where God killed over two and a half million people, but hey. They were believing what their parents believed, and unlucky for them, it just happened to be the wrong belief, so they're all rotting in hell. How unfortunate.

 

[hopeandjoy]

Why do people have to have religion to be good people? Charity existed before Christianity because humans are social animals and want to help people within their tribe/city/country/ect out. People can do good things without religion.

 

[Light]

Why do people have to have religion to be good people? Charity existed before Christianity because humans are social animals and want to help people within their tribe/city/country/ect out. People can do good things without religion.

No one said otherwise. It's just the fact of the matter is that religion is really good at encouraging it.

 

[Saith]

Why do people have to have religion to be good people? Charity existed before Christianity because humans are social animals and want to help people within their tribe/city/country/ect out. People can do good things without religion.

The very thing that drives people to do bad things in the name of religion drives them to do good things in the name of religion. It's not either/or, okay? You can either say that religion is the cause of both charity and hate, or that it is merely an excuse for both.
You can't say that bad things done for Christianity are the religion's fault while good things are the individual's. That's not how it works.
And even though religion isn't necessary for philanthropy, that doesn't change the fact that a lot of major charities are based on or stem from or gain their roots in or owe something to a religion.

And fyi, the reason that Christianity survived was because it was too different to all the other local traditions to be absorbed by the neighboring cultures. Before Christianity, it really would have been difficult to find someone who helped others out of the goodness of their heart. The whole point of charity is helping those less fortunate, and regardless of how 'social' we are as a species, that only goes so far as assisting our peers in exchange for future favours. I'm not a fan of Christianity, but the reason that Jesus was a groovy guy is that he helped people in need, even if it upset those with more power. He basically exemplified the difference between 'fuck you guys, I'm getting a drink' and 'stay here guys, I'll go grab us some more booze'.

 

[Rose]

Well, being a sociopath doesn't make you retarded. It's not like someone who is a sociopath doesn't understand that what they did (if they do something wrong) is wrong by society's standards, they just don't feel bad about it because they rationalize it a certain way.
He pretty obviously knows that what he did is atrocious for everyone else, but it is equally obvious that he doesn't feel an ounce of sympathy for the people he murdered. He has absolutely no regards for human life, or he wouldn't go about spouting shit like 'it's better to kill too many than too few' or tear through a youth camp for the sole purpose of trying to weaken the future Socialist party.





I also don't see how 76 dead is much better than 93. It's marginally better, I guess, but not much.

The textbook definition for a sociopath is someone that has a lack on conscious. I never said he was retarded, I actually do agree that he is very intelligent, but the thing is, he acknowledged he knows that it wasn't right. A sociopath wouldn't be able to do as such, because he has no "little voice" in the back of his head to remind him it was wrong, and no real impulse to think about how he is doing something wrong. When I said he admitted he was wrong, I am referring about his comment on his acts being, "atrocious, but necessary."

As a sociopath the word atrocious wouldn't fit anything his crimes, because HE did them, they were HIS actions, and he would do it because he could, not because he has a message. He has a conscious, just not one like you or I would probably think of it. His conscious would hound him on his message until those lives seemed less important to him, because he would believe he saw a greater injustice, it would be a misguided conscious that got him there, other wise he would have claimed no message, it would of been because he could do it.

Also, as far as the numbers go, I suppose it is just because that seemed like a break, the numbers kept going up, and it seemed to just keep getting bigger and bigger. I am a majorly positive person, the fact the number exists is a sad thing, at least in relation to deaths, but at the same time, it could have been 93, but it isn't. The number is 76, meaning that is 17 more kids that get to go home. I guess, and this is my opinion so I understand if you don't feel the same, but I am far more pleased that the number went down, then that it stayed were it was at.

17 skittles may not be that much, but I see 17 lives as a whole lot, which is the only reason why I said it was much better, and perhaps it isn't much better, but I would rather see it as 17 more alive, then still 76 dead.