Religion and Lack of Religion

[Harlequin]

People are horrible but a person is nice. I will absolutely say "I don't like Christians". I don't. I like individual Christians well enough, but that's because I know them apart from a general understanding of what they may believe. I can say with certainty that I won't like a strict Muslim, Christian or Jew for the simple reason that so much of what they believe runs completely contrary to my own beliefs and lifestyle. Why is that a bad thing to admit?

They may be perfectly personable and reasonable people elsewhere, but if we clash so horribly I'm not going to like them and it's because of their religion. It doesn't seem unfair to say "I don't like x" because surely it's usually understood that you mean "I don't like x generally because y, although there are exceptions and I know that not every x will y"?

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

I have a question related to the discussion at hand :o

I agree that hating all members of a religion is silly, but what about disliking the institution itself? For instance, I have plenty of Catholic family members and friends and I obviously like them, but I really have an aversion to the Catholic church as an institution.
Similarly, I don't personally know any Mormons and I'm sure they're nice, but I really think the whole 'let's donate money to another state's anti-gay hate campaign lol thereby ruining thousands of lives lol' was disgusting.

An institution is an impersonal system of organisation, so I don't really see a problem with disliking it.

Maybe I'm just being grossly unfair but I really don't much like religious institutions, I guess? And while I agree that door-to-door religion salesmen probably have their hearts in the right place, I find it a little hard to remember when they come say hello at nine on a Sunday. I'm always polite and I always end up getting an armful of pamphlets and wish them a good day but there are few things that tick me off more. It just seems rude, I guess. In the same way that I don't think atheism should be forced on anyone, I really wish they'd respect my right to not be saved from armageddon :/

What I would say to that is that they are offering you their religious beliefs rather than forcing them on you. Also, yeah, I think it's a bit inconsiderate to call to people that early on a Sunday, but that's a decision made by individuals, not by groups.

Um, you're being a little hypocritical! You're still making judgement on a whole based on your experience, and as you've said, that's not a good idea. The best thing to do is try to consider the person apart from where their beliefs might come from like VPLJ, I think.

I didn't say that the fact that I've never had problems with Jehovah's Witnesses was the reason I didn't dislike them as a group. I was just saying I've never had problems with them. The reason I don't dislike them as a group is because I think disliking groups of people without considering each individual person in that group is unfair.

And I don't really think about people's religious beliefs at all when I interact with them. Honestly, half the time I forget that my fianceé has a religion, so it's not really foremost on my mind unless someone brings it up.

Though, I mean, if someone's a strict Catholic, I don't feel that guilty about predicting I won't like them? Because being a strict Catholic comes with some things that I really don't like! I'm sure they might be quite kind and nice, just not necessarily someone I'd get on with or stand to be around! Being all "but some of them are nice people!!!" seems less useful than examining why you've disliked all the ones you've met before, and what the really bad thing is (the institution). I would parse 'I don't like Catholic people' as 'I don't like Catholicism' rather than 'I refuse to believe any Catholic person could ever be nice even though I haven't met them all', honestly.

I dunno, I wouldn't feel like I was being fair to a person if I was predicting that I wouldn't like them, since predicting is not that different to prejudging in this context (if there even is a difference in this context). It's kind of like how my English teacher gets annoyed when my friend Orla tells him he's not going to like her essays or tests because he doesn't want to be prejudging them before he gets to read them. Two people could be equally strict Catholics but you could like one and not like the other because one is privately devout and doesn't let his religious beliefs get into his public and personal life while the other is a full-on 24/7 super-Catholic.

People are horrible but a person is nice. I will absolutely say "I don't like Christians". I don't. I like individual Christians well enough, but that's because I know them apart from a general understanding of what they may believe.

But if you like some Christians, then "I don't like Christians" is a false statement. From what I can tell, you don't like the beliefs of Christians, which means "I don't like Christianity" would be a more accurate statement.

I can say with certainty that I won't like a strict Muslim, Christian or Jew for the simple reason that so much of what they believe runs completely contrary to my own beliefs and lifestyle. Why is that a bad thing to admit?

Because a strict X doesn't necessarily let their beliefs be a part of their public or personal life, they could be very private about it. If you knew a Muslic, Christian or Jew who was very strict in the observance of his religion in his private life but didn't let this affect his interactions with people of different beliefs and you let the fact that you knew, privately, his beliefs ran contrary to yours, no offence intended, I would consider you to be the unreasonable person in the situation. The vast majority of people that I know are theistic and I'm antitheistic but I don't let it colour my interaction with the people I know. If a theistic friend of mine started giving me shit for being atheistic even though I had never let it become a thing between us, I would find his actions very unreasonable, just as I would expect anyone to find it unreasonable for me to start giving them shit for being theistic when they keep it out of their relationships with other people.

They may be perfectly personable and reasonable people elsewhere, but if we clash so horribly I'm not going to like them and it's because of their religion.

I think you left out some sentence here, so I'm not going to respond to an incomplete sentence, as that would not contribute to the debate in any way.

It doesn't seem unfair to say "I don't like x" because surely it's usually understood that you mean "I don't like x generally because y, although there are exceptions and I know that not every x will y"?

If you know there are exceptions, why would you make a general statement about people like that? You should judge every person on their own merits, but if you're assuming right away that because of some aspect of their being, you and them will have a problem, then you're prejudging them and almost guaranteeing that you will have a problem with them.

 

[Minish]

If you're going to call this kind of predicting 'prejudging', then I still really don't think it's that terrible of a thing! Say you were at a party, and you didn't have enough time or effort to talk to everyone even though you wanted to make a friend! So you'd probably look at everyone and decide who looked the most compatible and interesting, right?

You should judge every person on their own merits, but if you're assuming right away that because of some aspect of their being, you and them will have a problem, then you're prejudging them and almost guaranteeing that you will have a problem with them.

I don't think this is a fair thing to say at all! I have to make careful decisions about whether or not to hang around a certain bunch of people, or talk to strangers at all, because if I find out they're, say for example, anti-feminist! or mean! then being around them and discovering that hands-on will probably upset me a great deal and make me feel really uncomfortable and be a huge waste of time, effort and nerves! A lot of people are like that about a lot of different things! So if you want to avoid that, you kind of have to ~prejudge~ in life?

I really don't think it's reasonable or realistic to expect people to never 'prejudge' and to think badly of them for it, when a lot of the time it's just learned experience, and trusting your own experiences and knowledge is pretty much the best you can do in most situations.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

If you're going to call this kind of predicting 'prejudging', then I still really don't think it's that terrible of a thing! Say you were at a party, and you didn't have enough time or effort to talk to everyone even though you wanted to make a friend! So you'd probably look at everyone and decide who looked the most compatible and interesting, right?

Um, I'm not really the walk-up-to-strangers-and-talk-to-them type, so I don't really know what I'd do. I usually don't go to parties where I don't know people and when I do, I usually end up either alone and awkward in a corner or just talk to someone who sits down near me or something. The idea of looking around and trying to see who looks interesting seems kind of silly to me because I can't really predict someone's personality based on their appearance.

I don't think this is a fair thing to say at all! I have to make careful decisions about whether or not to hang around a certain bunch of people, or talk to strangers at all, because if I find out they're, say for example, anti-feminist! or mean! then being around them and discovering that hands-on will probably upset me a great deal and make me feel really uncomfortable and be a huge waste of time, effort and nerves! A lot of people are like that about a lot of different things! So if you want to avoid that, you kind of have to ~prejudge~ in life?

I'd rather be fair to someone and waste my own time or get uncomfortable than prejudge them, to be honest. I guess that's just where our values differ irreconcilably.

I really don't think it's reasonable or realistic to expect people to never 'prejudge' and to think badly of them for it, when a lot of the time it's just learned experience, and trusting your own experiences and knowledge is pretty much the best you can do in most situations.

I'm not suggesting every body in the world suddenly stopped prejudging but if people learned to become more self-aware in that sense and learned to stop themselves when they're doing it and then taught those same skills to the next generation, I don't think it's unrealistic that we could reduce the level of prejudice in the world and make it a nicer, more open and accepting place to live in. I don't expect it to happen in my lifetime, but that's no reason to not try and make it happen eventually.

I dunno, I think people being unfair to each other is the basic cause of almost all the world's problems, so I guess I just want to strive to be as fair as I can to everyone? Maybe our beliefs just don't line up in that aspect. You seem to believe in pragmatic unfairness which just doesn't sit well with me, despite the fact that I'm a pragmatist about a lot of things.

 

[Saith]

If you're going to call this kind of predicting 'prejudging', then I still really don't think it's that terrible of a thing! Say you were at a party, and you didn't have enough time or effort to talk to everyone even though you wanted to make a friend! So you'd probably look at everyone and decide who looked the most compatible and interesting, right?

Well I mean, you go talk to the pretty people, yeah. Or the ones doing funny shit. Or, you know, the cool ones. Whatever.
You don't, however, tell the uggos to fuck off. Even if you want to.
I'm not big on the whole hating people for their beliefs thing. Doesn't jam with me, you know? The jazz just doesn't work.

I mean, there's been Catholics I haven't gotten along with, but there've also been atheists I haven't gotten along with.
Hell, there've even been white, bisexual, panromantic, working-class, tall, brunette agnostic trans chicks I haven't gotten along with.
Doesn't mean I hate myself.

 

[Dannichu]

I don't get it; assuming the said person's not wearing a habit or dog collar (in which case, yeah, they probably are a strict Christian) or somesuch, how would you know before speaking to someone if they're Christian (or indeed, religious) or not? I don't usually use "What religious beliefs do you hold?" as an opening line, and often don't discover a person's thoughts about religion until the third or fourth time I speak to someone - again, it's not usually first-conversation material. I don't know where all these people who introduce themselves by saying "Hi, I'm Ben and I love God and hate gays and think the Earth was created in 6 days" live, but they don't seem to frequent Kent or Devon as I've never met one. Most religious people I know enjoy BBC comedy, would like to visit Australia before they die, wish they were a little better at a musical instrument and are politely confused by my love of Pokemon. Like just about every other person I know.

And while I'm here, we are all aware that 'prejudging' is essentially 'to engage in prejudice', right? When did this become an okay thing to do?

 

[hopeandjoy]

Actually, in the American South the phrase "What's your name?" is commonly followed by "What church do you go to?"

Still, that's considered polite in the South, so you can't always predict beliefs based off of that.

 

[Minish]

I'm not big on the whole hating people for their beliefs thing. Doesn't jam with me, you know? The jazz just doesn't work.

I hope that's working out for you! I like not to hate people based on their beliefs, too, but that seems a bit of an odd, meaningless thing to say? I'm perfectly okay with admitting that I dislike people who have racist beliefs? I guess I'm just a terrible person!!!

And while I'm here, we are all aware that 'prejudging' is essentially 'to engage in prejudice', right? When did this become an okay thing to do?

Because it helps with not feeling terribly uncomfortable talking to someone?? If someone looks mean, I won't talk to them just in case they aren't mean after all, that seems a bit pointless and upsetting! It probably means I'm omg missing out on the best people in life!!!! or something, sure, but I consider it worth it if it means getting less upset! Alsooo "sorry I don't really want to talk to you any more it turns out you're really anti-choice whoops!" seems like a pretty awkward thing to have to do that'll only end in even more upset and discomfort!

I'm not really talking about judging people on absolute first impressions? I talk to complete strangers very, very rarely. Mostly I already know a bit about a person because of where they are the way they're speaking what people have told me about them! So, yes, I make my judgement on whether I want to see if they want to be friends based on that! I'm pretty sure everyone makes such choices? Not doing so might be an ideal we should all live up to or something, but sometimes I feel like giving someone else a chance is less important than being fair to yourself as far as social situations go, so!

I guess the Christian example is a bad one, but if you're assuming that I mean looking at someone and then making an instant judgement, then all my examples are bad. I do not actually go around thinking things like "hmmm that person looks like they'd be anti-choice AVOID".

 

[Zero Moment]

I hope that's working out for you! I like not to hate people based on their beliefs, too, but that seems a bit of an odd, meaningless thing to say? I'm perfectly okay with admitting that I dislike people who have racist beliefs? I guess I'm just a terrible person!!!

I'm pretty sure he's talking about religious beliefs.
The thread /is/ about religion, after all.

 

[Minish]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about religious beliefs.
The thread /is/ about religion, after all.

Probably! But that's kind of silly, since I wasn't just talking about religious beliefs. And to be honest, I consider that the same kind of thing? In my experience, Christians tend to be more anti-choice than pro-choice, atheists tend to be more pro-choice than anti-choice? So, to escape the deep discomfort I feel talking to someone I suspect might be anti-choice, I would rather talk to whoever has less of that chance!

I'm going by my personal experience! I'm engaging in prejudice!! Being ruthlessly pragmatic!!! Weeell I'd rather have the least possible chance of bursting into tears mid-conversation, so I guess I'll stay this way, actually.

 

[Tailsy]

Actually, in the American South the phrase "What's your name?" is commonly followed by "What church do you go to?"

Still, that's considered polite in the South, so you can't always predict beliefs based off of that.

That made me smile; here there's a similar, but more subtle system. People will ask you what school you went to, and of course your answer determines whether you're Protestant or Catholic! Which is sort of a medium deal, here (not as much as it used to be and certainly not as much as it is in Northern Ireland, but still).

More linguistically-minded people might ask you how you pronounce 'H' though ('haech' if you were raised Catholic, 'aech' if you were raised Protestant). But that's sort of an odd question.

 

[SquishierCobra]

My views on religion are
"No. You see all the evil in the world and come to the conclusion that a benevolent deity would never allow it all to happen."
and
"No. There is no good reason to believe there should be one, and science is slowly rendering religion obsolete."
Yes, Butterfree, I quoted the WPAY quiz, because it's my honest opinion.

But I don't bash people's religious views unless they take them way too far, like Al Qaeda.

 

[Light]

Because it helps with not feeling terribly uncomfortable talking to someone?? If someone looks mean, I won't talk to them just in case they aren't mean after all, that seems a bit pointless and upsetting! It probably means I'm omg missing out on the best people in life!!!! or something, sure, but I consider it worth it if it means getting less upset! Alsooo "sorry I don't really want to talk to you any more it turns out you're really anti-choice whoops!" seems like a pretty awkward thing to have to do that'll only end in even more upset and discomfort!

Most people who are pro-life (or as you like to say, anti-choice) will respect your opinion and not think less of you for it, and only try to argue with you about it if you seem to welcome a debate. If they can't respect your opinions then they deserve a whack in the face delivered via being ignored, but if they can tolerate your opinion, why can't you tolerate theirs? Unless you are just someone who always likes to have these flammable conversations with people you hardly know, why have some phobia about someone you know is likely to not share your views? You might be surprised at how much you can get along with people who think differently than you.

 

[surskitty]

Most people who are pro-life (or as you like to say, anti-choice) will respect your opinion and not think less of you for it, and only try to argue with you about it if you seem to welcome a debate. If they can't respect your opinions then they deserve a whack in the face delivered via being ignored, but if they can tolerate your opinion, why can't you tolerate theirs? Unless you are just someone who always likes to have these flammable conversations with people you hardly know, why have some phobia about someone you know is likely to not share your views? You might be surprised at how much you can get along with people who think differently than you.

I've never had a conversation with anyone anti-choice where the topic came to abortion where they did not try to convince me to change my opinion on the matter. That's probably because if someone understands the idea of other people's lives being their own business, they're pro-choice. You can be against abortion and still be pro-choice; it just means that you personally will do your best to not have an abortion.

'Pro-life' is a meaningless label; anti-choice people are often against abortion even in cases where the person pregnant's life is in danger or when the fetus will almost certainly not survive anyway. I don't see how the hell that counts as pro-life.

Refusing to associate with people once I find out they're anti-choice seems to be a completely sensible decision. :| If someone can't respect other people's right to control their own lives on that subject, how can I expect them to on others?

 

[Ether's Bane]

I've never had a conversation with anyone anti-choice where the topic came to abortion where they did not try to convince me to change my opinion on the matter.

Then... don't talk to them about abortion? Really, these things are just a small facet of a person - I know people who are against abortion but are otherwise decent people.

 

[shy ♡]

I don't get it; assuming the said person's not wearing a habit or dog collar (in which case, yeah, they probably are a strict Christian) or somesuch, how would you know before speaking to someone if they're Christian (or indeed, religious) or not? I don't usually use "What religious beliefs do you hold?" as an opening line, and often don't discover a person's thoughts about religion until the third or fourth time I speak to someone - again, it's not usually first-conversation material. I don't know where all these people who introduce themselves by saying "Hi, I'm Ben and I love God and hate gays and think the Earth was created in 6 days" live, but they don't seem to frequent Kent or Devon as I've never met one. Most religious people I know enjoy BBC comedy, would like to visit Australia before they die, wish they were a little better at a musical instrument and are politely confused by my love of Pokemon. Like just about every other person I know.

And while I'm here, we are all aware that 'prejudging' is essentially 'to engage in prejudice', right? When did this become an okay thing to do?

I love when we pretend Christianity is the only religion! My favourite game!

Anyhow. I do tend to avoid Chareidim et large. If you lived here you would understand; in the US apparently they are different and actually uh, good? Idk. But in Israel they are... douchebaggery personified. They throw rocks at people (if you're a) driving on shabbat b) a woman c) dressed inappropriately and a woman and by inappropriately I mean your elbows are showing, or queer-looking), close down shopping malls/stores/movie theatres/anywhere that isn't kosher/jewish/modest enough for them (and these are not in their neighborhoods, these are everywhere; if it's in Israel they will not allow it), protest and throw rocks at girls in schools because they are near the Chareidi neighborhood and these 12 year old girls are apparently 'immodest'. The list goes on, honestly, I just dislike them. A kid threw a rock at my cousin's car while he was driving it for absolutely no reason and it wasn't even on shabbat, it was just. No reason. Oh, and on random days they have fucking random ass parades where they crowd the streets so you can't walk/drive anywhere. And no one knows when it happens, completely unpredictable, and they'll yell/throw rocks at you if you try to drive by. :|

Eh. But I do suspend my prejudice towards individuals, since I know single persons tend to be good. Something about seeing and talking to someone face to face usually makes a person realize that you're human and they lose their ability to throw rocks at you.

ALSO since abortion was brought up, I'd like to add something. Pro-life is a really defunct term; it only seems to care about the life of the fetus. Many, many people could not live with a fetus inside them, with giving birth, the outcome of that, even giving it away. I know if I was pregnant, first of all, I am bipolar and my depression would worsen so much that I'd probably just kill myself. Forgetting all the dysphoria and shit. And the fact that babies are one of my biggest triggers.

It just seems like pro-lifers tend to focus on the life of a non-existent person rather than the life of someone who already is living. Because babies are somehow pure and innocent, whereas a person who had sex!!!! is the devil and deserves the pain they will suffer from being pregnant, whatever that may be.

 

[Light]

Okay, I'm taking this to the abortion thread.

I've never had a conversation with anyone anti-choice where the topic came to abortion where they did not try to convince me to change my opinion on the matter. That's probably because if someone understands the idea of other people's lives being their own business, they're pro-choice.

While you have something of a point, I don't think it's fair to say only pro-choice people respect the pro-choice opinion. Someone can recognize that someone else simply has a different line of thinking and still feel compelled to give their input on that line of thinking, especially when it comes to an emotional topic where the result of different conclusions could be highly consequential. So I guess I shouldn't be as surprised as I am to hear every anti-choice person you have mentioned abortion with has tried to change your mind. If that's the case though, that is an important detail.

You can be against abortion and still be pro-choice; it just means that you personally will do your best to not have an abortion. 'Pro-life' is a meaningless label; anti-choice people are often against abortion even in cases where the person pregnant's life is in danger or when the fetus will almost certainly not survive anyway. I don't see how the hell that counts as pro-life.

If someone is against abortion even in the case where the mother's life is in danger, then they should not be called "pro-life". However I assure you there are many people who are pro-life who do not oppose abortion in that senario because they truly are pro-life. If the fetus will almost certainly not survive anyway, pro-life applies because they want to save the fetus on the off chance it does survive. Remember that doctors always have to exaggerate the probability of averse outcomes.

Refusing to associate with people once I find out they're anti-choice seems to be a completely sensible decision. :| If someone can't respect other people's right to control their own lives on that subject, how can I expect them to on others?

Because in the case of abortion, they really believe that you are killing what is equivalent of a living person, and no one should have that "right". And I'm not saying that's the case, I'm just saying that is actually what they think it is, while often knowing very well that you do not see it that way yourself. You can't respect a serial killer's right to do whatever he wants with his victims, and yet you can be expected to respect a person's right to do any number of other things.

 

[Phantom]

I know this is bumping a bit, but I didn't feel like starting a new thread was needed.

This literally made me tear up.

 

[Light]

Should the banner have been hanging there: No.

Was it really doing any harm before it became an issue: ...not really. There's a big difference between doing what is right and upholding the law as if it were Gospel. Treating the law like it's all super important ranks really low on Kolhberg's moral development.

That being said, for the lols:

 

[Tarvos]

I am just happy we have people like Ms Ahlquist around. I am now watching her speech and I am like YES, FINALLY. To be honest that is all I can say. People talk about what religion gives them - themselves - and I think that, to me, is the whole story. It's just you, my friends. You don't give a fuck about other people. You only care what God gives to you. And if we're not in your exclusive members club (because fuck it, you wouldn't pray for an atheist, right?) Those people who have been spouting that vitriol - it makes me SICK to the stomach.

People can wear what they want, live their lives as they please - but their liberty to do exactly this ends when it infringes upon another person's right to do so.

If you really believed in those tenets of yours - you would be rolling in your grave at your fellow religionists.

note: you is pluralis majestatis