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Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

The only reason it doesn't contradict what we already know is that it's unfalsifiable! All you're proving is that it is theoretically possible that our souls go on to another universe - however, leprechauns and the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Harry Potter being real are all also theoretically possible. Being theoretically possible is not a reason to believe anything - you should believe what actually seems, when analyzed objectively, to be the most likely answer.

The subjective experience posited by the "anti-soul side" is that your subjective experience simply stops, after maybe hallucinating light at the end of a tunnel or seeing your life flash before your eyes. This would rhyme perfectly with everything we know about the universe. Why, other than wishful thinking, would you actively believe this to be less likely than spiritual universes and souls and whatnot?
I suppose the main evidence is my personal experiences and the personal experiences of people I know and love deeply. I guess I can't continue debating.

"Foe Butterfree's Intimidate cuts Eloi's attack!".
"Foe Butterfree used Logic!"
"It was super effective!"
"Eloi used Reflect!"
"It wasn't very effective..."
"Foe opaltiger used Helping Hand!"
"Foe opaltiger's Helping Hand raised foe Butterfree's Attack!"
"Foe Butterfree used Logic!"
"Critical Hit!"
"It was super effective!"
"Eloi fainted!"
 
The argument from personal experience is a pretty bad one. It's more parsimonious to argue that people are easily deluded, or that what they believe to be a certain phenomenon is actually something else. The human brain, even for all its postulated complexity, is remarkably easy to fool.
 
The argument from personal experience is a pretty bad one. It's more parsimonious to argue that people are easily deluded, or that what they believe to be a certain phenomenon is actually something else. The human brain, even for all its postulated complexity, is remarkably easy to fool.

Which is why I'm not debating with it as evidence for you guys, nyeh?
 
That'd be a good idea. :) I'm just putting out there because so many people like to use this.

Which incidentally is why it's not a response to a quote.
 
I'd just like to say one thing and pop back in here: The very laws of cells go against evolution as it is said by atheists.

Just if you don't feel like googling, the cell theory states that all living things are made of cells, cells are the basic unit of organization and function in all organisms, and all cells come from other cells.

question: If secular evolution is correct, how does it reconcile with all living things being made of cells and all cells coming from cells?
 
I'd just like to say one thing and pop back in here: The very laws of cells go against evolution as it is said by atheists.

Just if you don't feel like googling, the cell theory states that all living things are made of cells, cells are the basic unit of organization and function in all organisms, and all cells come from other cells.

question: If secular evolution is correct, how does it reconcile with all living things being made of cells and all cells coming from cells?

There are exceptions to cell theory.

Come on, this is the most ridiculous non-issue. You're taking a set of general rules which hold more or less constantly and saying "but look! this highly exceptional event (i.e. the origin of the first cell) violates these rules!". Can you think of a way to reconcile cell theory with evolution? I sure can. "All cells arose by division of other cells except the first cells". Wow, that was difficult.
 
Pwnemon and anyone else who has considered making a serious argument in this vein:

Don't you think, if evolution were really proven impossible by simple established scientific principles (be it cell theory, the second law of thermodynamics, the fact we still have monkeys or whatever) in a way any child can understand, that some of the highly educated scientists accepting evolution as fact would have noticed it at some point?

Claiming there is a fatal conceptual flaw in evolution (or any other scientific theory) that is obvious to you, a random thirteen-year-old with no biological expertise, is to claim that the entire scientific community is composed of idiots. Do you really not stop before making such a proposition to consider that maybe you're missing something? At least have the humility to ask it as a question instead of going "WELL SEE EVOLUTION IS DEMONSTRABLY WRONG BECAUSE CLEARLY I'M THE ONLY PERSON WHO COULD EVER HAVE THOUGHT OF THIS."

(Also, by your logic, cell theory clearly also makes God impossible. According to cell theory all cells arose from other cells, not by being created! Therefore, God does not exist. QED.)
 
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Can someone who can't smell have evidence that certain poisons smell like walnuts? They can have faith that it does, but they can't experience it forthemselves.

Of course they can. But the fact that certain poisons smell like walnuts is supported by scientific evidence, whereas the afterlife is not.

How do we know that other explanations of it are incorrect without knowing the actual explanation? Thats silly.

It is most certainly not silly. Let's take a hypothetical situation; a book falls off a shelf suddenly.

Someone who believes in ghosts believes that a ghost knocked it off the shelf. This belief depends on the physical existence of ghosts.

All things which exist physically are composed of massenergy. There is a finite amount of massenergy. If ghosts exist, they must be composed of massenergy. If a ghost is the soul of a dead organism, then the massenergy must come from that organism upon their death. Since, excluding the recent development of synthetic foods, all organisms are reusing massenergy from dead organisms to make up their own bodies, this means that with each successive generation of organisms, there is less massenergy left behind to be used to make new organisms. Since there is less massenergy left behind to make new organisms, there must be less organisms with each successive generation.

However, it is demonstrably true that 75, 000 years, the Toba event resulted in the mass reduction of many populations, including the reduction of the human population to a mere 10, 000 breeding pairs, if that. If ghosts exist, due to the aforementioned loss of massenergy, it would be impossible for the amount of organisms on the planet to increase.

However, it is also demonstrably true that that has happened, since the human population has grown from that mere 10, 000 breeding pairs to almost 7 billion people. Therefore, it is impossible that ghosts exist.

From that, it can reasonably be concluded that a ghost did not knock the book of the shelf. However, it remains unexplained.

But just because it is unexplained does not mean that some of the theories cannot be ruled out.

Because we have no explanation for what happens to the thinking consciousness of a human after they expire, wherein we have an explanation of lightning.

Of course we have an explanation for what happens to human consciousness; it ends. Human consciousness is just a biological process carried out by one of our organs, when we die, our organs cease to function and human consciousness ends.

"Less knowledge"? We still don't know what happens in a subjective experience of a human being once their bodies stop functioning anymore than the people of Jesus' time did.

When their bodies stop functioning, they lose the ability to have any experiences. We don't know what experiences a dead person has because a dead person has no experiences.

Yes but what we experience after we expire is not ball lightning, nor do we have any explanations of what happens as clear as the ball lightning's explanation.

We experience nothing after we die, because we are dead.

But there is no scientific explanation of our subjective experience of reality after our bodies cease function. Does it just "end"? What would the "ending" feel like? Would we be aware of this "ending"?

The scientific evidence is that our experience ends, because we are dead. Yes, it does just end, the quotation marks are unnecessary. The ending doesn't feel like anything because we are dead and therefore incapable of feeling. We are not aware of this ending because we are dead.

What scientific explanations?

That the soul, of which there is no evidence of existing, does not exist and that human consciousness, which is a biological process, ceases to occur just like our other biological processes.

Why are we confined to the physical laws of this reality when He is clearly referring to another reality?

Because even if Jesus is referring to another reality, we still die in this reality, so our deaths are subject to this reality's physical laws.

Furthermore, there is not, nor has there ever been, anything other than purely hypothetical evidence of a reality other than our own. It is ridiculous to assume the existence of another reality when there is no evidence of such. This what opal was referring to.

Your belief in the afterlife requires the existence of souls, of which there is no evidence, that can move from one reality to another, which requires the existence of another reality, of which there is no evidence, and the ability to move from one reality to another, of which there is no evidence, which also requires the existence of another reality, of which there is no evidence.

On the other hand, the idea that there is no afterlife is consistent with our knowledge of physical laws.

The first hypothesis requires the existence of numerous entities of which there is no evidence, while the second requires no such entities and is already, without positing the existence of such entities, consistent with the physical laws of the universe.

And yet, based on the account of one man, who lived in an age significantly less scientifically knowledgeable than the modern age, you choose to believe the first hypothesis rather than the second. Why?

Furthermore, you state after reading the account of several people, you decided that Jesus's was the most believable. Why is his account any more believable than the account of an atheist who never posited the existence of entities of which there is no evidence?

Finally, you have stated that you have not yet completed your studies into the lives of "prophets". If you have not yet completed your studies, why have you already reached a conclusion?
 
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I'd just like to say one thing and pop back in here: The very laws of cells go against evolution as it is said by atheists.

Just if you don't feel like googling, the cell theory states that all living things are made of cells, cells are the basic unit of organization and function in all organisms, and all cells come from other cells.

question: If secular evolution is correct, how does it reconcile with all living things being made of cells and all cells coming from cells?

Cells are built up out of molecules. So where did the first molecules come from?

Your question is flawed. What you really want to know is where to draw the line. Where, in fact, did life start? Cells sprung up as organisational material from other grouped molecules. So why did those molecules group together? Because the physical circumstances at that point in time were favourable to do so. How did those molecules get there? They didn't get there. They weren't put there.

The universe has always simply existed, including whatever's in it. That's the simplest explanation.

Besides, postulating "God" to create the first cell is simply not parsimonious. God, if he was capable of creating a cell, would be more complex than it.

Evolution, or I should say, natural selection works on every living thing. But it also works on molecules if you take the analogy a bit further. As soon as molecules started replicating, you have evolution working.

What you're simply asking is "how the fuck are there molecules on this planet?"

What evolution answers is how those molecules ended up making you able to walk and talk and have this conversation. Evolution doesn't have jurisdiction over the creation of the universe, or how cells got to be anywhere. That's a matter of physics and chemistry. Fortunately for you, I'm a chemist (well, technically, chemical engineer) by trade.

Cell theory works on existing cells.
 
There are exceptions to cell theory.

Come on, this is the most ridiculous non-issue. You're taking a set of general rules which hold more or less constantly and saying "but look! this highly exceptional event (i.e. the origin of the first cell) violates these rules!". Can you think of a way to reconcile cell theory with evolution? I sure can. "All cells arose by division of other cells except the first cells". Wow, that was difficult.

Well opal you're missing my point. If scientific theory is developed through recreatible(sp) trials and models, then if cell theory states that all cells come from cells, there has been no shown or tested way to make a cell come from a not-cell.

Pwnemon and anyone else who has considered making a serious argument in this vein:

Don't you think, if evolution were really proven impossible by simple established scientific principles (be it cell theory, the second law of thermodynamics, the fact we still have monkeys or whatever) in a way any child can understand, that some of the highly educated scientists accepting evolution as fact would have noticed it at some point?

Claiming there is a fatal conceptual flaw in evolution (or any other scientific theory) that is obvious to you, a random thirteen-year-old with no biological expertise, is to claim that the entire scientific community is composed of idiots. Do you really not stop before making such a proposition to consider that maybe you're missing something? At least have the humility to ask it as a question instead of going "WELL SEE EVOLUTION IS DEMONSTRABLY WRONG BECAUSE CLEARLY I'M THE ONLY PERSON WHO COULD EVER HAVE THOUGHT OF THIS."

question: If secular evolution is correct, how does it reconcile with all living things being made of cells and all cells coming from cells?

ohey.

(Also, by your logic, cell theory clearly also makes God impossible. According to cell theory all cells arose from other cells, not by being created! Therefore, God does not exist. QED.)

That would be true except for the fact that the very existence of an omnipotent God implies supernatural powers and the ability to defy laws of science.

EDIT: I had to leave and then missed watershed's point. The type of evolution I've heard is that the universe has been around for about 13 billion years iirc, but I know it wasn't forever.
 
All this talk of intervention paints God in the image of a sorceror, shows Him as orchestrator of possession, a demonic entity, acting on a physical and spiritual level.

A god who does stuff is a dick.

Discuss.
 
Well opal you're missing my point. If scientific theory is developed through recreatible(sp) trials and models, then if cell theory states that all cells come from cells, there has been no shown or tested way to make a cell come from a not-cell.

Very true.

Oh, except for that time that scientists created artificial life.

Pwnemon, Google is your friend.

If secular evolution is correct, how does it reconcile with all living things being made of cells and all cells coming from cells?

All cells except the first cells came from other cells. Obviously.

I had to leave and then missed watershed's point. The type of evolution I've heard is that the universe has been around for about 13 billion years iirc, but I know it wasn't forever.

Since the universe started is forever. It has always been there, because time, space and all existence started when the universe started.
 
Well opal you're missing my point. If scientific theory is developed through recreatible(sp) trials and models, then if cell theory states that all cells come from cells, there has been no shown or tested way to make a cell come from a not-cell.
Artificially created cells say "hi".
 
Well opal you're missing my point. If scientific theory is developed through recreatible(sp) trials and models, then if cell theory states that all cells come from cells, there has been no shown or tested way to make a cell come from a not-cell.

Are you... trying to work backwards from the conclusion to figure out the evidence? That's not how it works. You can't say "cell theory states that cells only arise from division of other cells, therefore there has been no evidence that cells can spontaneously appear". Cell theory gives several statements that are broadly speaking true in the context in which the theory is used. That doesn't mean they are universal. Science simplifies. It uses tools which fit the context. Newtonian mechanics are more or less wrong, but under certain conditions they approximate reality well enough to be useful. Similarly, cell theory makes statements which, while not universally true, are near enough that we can ignore the one or two exceptional cases.

Let me summarise that paragraph: the fact that cell theory states all cells arose from other cells does not imply that it is impossible for cells to spontaneously assemble.

And there's plenty of evidence showing how cells might have spontaneously assembled. Lipids form membranes spontaneously in water, did you know that? Add a bit of RNA which is capable of self-replication, enclose it in the membrane, and you have a primitive cell.

Now, I'd like to hear what all this has to do with evolution. Evolution doesn't concern itself with how the first living beings came to be.
 
artificial cells came from other cells, just not by standard reproductive mechanisms?

EDIT: also, claiming evolution doesn't work because of that is like claiming a! = (a-1)!a doesn't work. it's just non-exhaustive pattern matching.
 
EDIT: I had to leave and then missed watershed's point. The type of evolution I've heard is that the universe has been around for about 13 billion years iirc, but I know it wasn't forever.

evolution has zero to do with existence of the cosmos. evolution works on living organisms
 
So, I'm at with my Grandma at one of her Messianic meetings she dragged me along to. (One of the ladies there said as soon as I walked into the room she could "feel the spirit of God" enter with me. lol moment) They had a speaker there who put forth two different "theories". Considering I know jack shit about the subjects, I'd like to know whether or not what he says is plausible.

So, first, he thinks that dark matter (which, I quote, consists of mostly dark energy) is actually God, and that, paraphrasing, the constant expansion and shrinking of the universe is actually God and Satan "battling in the heavens", as referenced in the Bible.

Second, he claims, since the "electromagnetic field surrounding the Earth allows communication between cells", we can, in turn, affect the electromagnetic field. If "we say or do things that are unrighteous to God", we can cause hurricanes and other natural disasters.

So, am I imagining things, or is he a loon?
 
He's a loon.

You should have asked him how he knew the dark matter was God and the matter Satan, rather than the other way round.
 
You should have asked him how he knew the dark matter was God and the matter Satan, rather than the other way round.

I think he actually said that the dark matter was made up of 77% dark energy and 23% dark matter. The dark energy is God, and the dark matter is Satan. I have no clue what he's talking about, but it seems fucking bogus to me.
 
I think he actually said that the dark matter was made up of 77% dark energy and 23% dark matter. The dark energy is God, and the dark matter is Satan. I have no clue what he's talking about, but it seems fucking bogus to me.

*smokes suspicious looking plant* Naah man, thats just what They *want* you to think! You gotta dig deep, into your internal cosmic, maaan. And when you reach your internal cosmic, you will see that your soul could be pink, maaaan. And if it is pink you are a righteous being in the galactic egg of the universal breakfast, maaaaaan. Whoa. Thats like, deep, maaaaan. *smokes more*
 
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