Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

[hopeandjoy]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Well, my mother just thinks that God started the Big Bang and sat back and relaxed, only stepping in when He needed to help.

Of course, my mom was an atheist before she became a Catholic again, so she could just be holding on to old common sense.

That's also the reason that she's convinced I'll come crawling back to the Church someday, but whatever.

The point is, it's compatible, you just don't take the Bible literally. You know, like what any not completely insane sect of Christianity does.

 

[Saith]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

If you can pick and choose aspects of the bible to follow, aspects of god to believe in, you're worshipping a god of your own creation.

 

[Sage Noctowl]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Bible Quote numero uno: Doomed as in doomed in the afterlife.
Dos: Deuteronomy was sort of over-ruled by the coming of Jesus.
Approximate quote: Let those of you who have not sinned cast the first stone.
Leafpool: that's a typo, right? That's supposed to say abortion, right?
To the abortion quandry: Hasn't anyone ever heard of the concept of self-control and abstaining until you're ready to take a child?
I agree with Flora.

 

[opaltiger]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

If you start not taking the Bible literally to account for the Big Bang, you have to discard most of Genesis, unless you're trying to convince me that that whole sequence of creating the heaven/earth/sun/animals/etc. is some sort of metaphor for the Big Bang. If the only way to fit the Bible into the larger picture is to ignore most of it, why the hell would you bother keeping it around. That's what I really don't get. If you're ignoring/re-interpreting half the Bible, you clearly don't have such a strong attachment to it, so why pay attention to the other half?

Dos: Deuteronomy was sort of over-ruled by the coming of Jesus.

Funny how people seem to forget that when using Deuteronomy to support their points. Listen, I'm sure I could find a quote from a relevant book of the Bible which states unbelievers must be killed, but I really can't be bothered, especially since you'll just find some other grounds on which to ignore it. Even so; at one point, Christianity demanded death for unbelievers. Why would you follow such a religion, even if it has evolved a little?

 

[Zuu]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

It's sort of hard to abstain from rape.

Also, people make mistakes.

 

[Saith]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Bible Quote numero uno: Doomed as in doomed in the afterlife.
Dos: Deuteronomy was sort of over-ruled by the coming of Jesus.
Approximate quote: Let those of you who have not sinned cast the first stone.
Leafpool: that's a typo, right? That's supposed to say abortion, right?
To the abortion quandry: Hasn't anyone ever heard of the concept of self-control and abstaining until you're ready to take a child?
I agree with Flora.

Yeah, but then we realised that that's retarded.

 

[Butterfree]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

A. Who is not to say that god created man by evolving it from other organisms?

You can't "evolve something from something else". Or rather, specifically, you can't evolve something from something else by natural selection, because natural selection by its very nature excludes outside influence. The theory of evolution states that humans evolved from other animals by natural selection, which is in direct conflict with the idea that a conscious entity purposefully set out to make humans. Nobody is "doing" the evolving; that's the whole point of Darwinism.

1. I don't see anything wrong with believing something that might be wrong. Sure, that means I'm wrong, but in the end, who really cares?

You can personally believe whatever you like, but if you acknowledge that there is no evidence to say that you're right, that also means that you have no right to i) tell other people (such as your children) that you're right, or ii) base your stance on anything that actually matters for somebody else on that belief.

I can't personally wrap my head around genuinely believing something while consciously acknowledging you're probably wrong, but I guess I have no complaint if you can so long as you follow the above rules. :/

 

[Sage Noctowl]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Rape is... a whole different concept.
But mistakes don't go without punishemts. If someone makes the mistake of murdering someone, should they go without being punished for their wrongdoing?

 

[Autumn]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Leafpool: that's a typo, right? That's supposed to say abortion, right?

Hmm? What did I misspell?

To the abortion quandry: Hasn't anyone ever heard of the concept of self-control and abstaining until you're ready to take a child?

Abstinence isn't always the best policy, though. For humanity, having sex is not about having it for the sole purpose of bearing a child; people do it for pleasure. And pleasure doesn't care whether it's safe or not, and can lead to unwanted pregnancy. Sometimes the condom breaks or other contraceptive methods fail. Sometimes the woman is raped. Sometimes other complications occur. Either way, however you choose to look at it, unwanted pregnancies do exist, and abortion is the best way to deal with them.

 

[Sage Noctowl]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

You wrote 'legalizing adoption'.
And it's easy to prevnt them, by a little thing called self-control.

 

[Autumn]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

And it's easy to prevnt them, by a little thing called self-control.

Controlling sexual urges is unhealthy.

 

[Sage Noctowl]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

So you're saying I shouldn't keep myself under control and listen to every single one of my urges every waking second?

 

[Zuu]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Rape is... a whole different concept.
But mistakes don't go without punishemts. If someone makes the mistake of murdering someone, should they go without being punished for their wrongdoing?

That's a terrible analogy. You can't compare sex to murder. Murder is a detestable act. Sex isn't.

If someone thinks they're ready for a child, and has sex, but then gets pregnant and realizes they can't handle the responsibility, you really want to punish them? That's sadistic and contradicts the whole altruistic, Good Guy Christian image. Or maybe it doesn't.

 

[Saith]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

But what's so great about self-control, really?
I mean, for us heathens, there is no afterlife, just a void of nothingness. Why not actually do something in this life, while we have the chance?

I have, approximately, 58 years left. I'm not gonna abstain untill I'm 35 and have a stable job. Self-control really has no use, because if you can handle the consequences, or remove them entirely, the only thing left to fear is some being who you don't think exists.
If I have to abide someone else's rules for reasons I don't have, then surely that's the mark of tyranny.

So you're saying I shouldn't keep myself under control and listen to every single one of my urges every waking second?

Yes, if you can handle/remove the consequences.

 

[opaltiger]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

So you're saying I shouldn't keep myself under control and listen to every single one of my urges every waking second?

Straw men, yay. No, she's saying that abstinence is unhealthy; that even taking precautions can be insufficient; and thus, that abortion is the best solution for unwanted pregnancies,

 

[Flora]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

That's sadistic and contradicts the whole altruistic, Good Guy Christian image.

A lot of things contradict that mentality.

One that instantly comes to mind is "Gays are just like everyone else! But homosexuality is a sin so they can't sleep with/marry the person they love."

 

[Butterfree]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

To the abortion quandry: Hasn't anyone ever heard of the concept of self-control and abstaining until you're ready to take a child?

That argument would work somewhat better if not for the fact that the one who isn't abstaining isn't the only person affected; there is also a child, and if you really don't want a child but have one anyway, odds are that child is going to be miserable. You can't just use the child as a punishment for the parents for not being responsible enough or whatever.

Further, with the fact that it is possible for another person to plant a child in you through no fault of your own and that modern contraception works well enough for most people to be able to enjoy recreational sex without getting pregnant, unwanted pregnancy does not at all have to equal irresponsible. You may say "But if you have recreational sex knowing that the condom could rip or the pill could fail, that's also irresponsible if you're not prepared to have a child!", but then do you say of someone who dies in a car crash, "He had it coming, driving a car knowing people die in car accidents all the time"?

And it's very hard to be for abortion in cases of rape but not otherwise. How do you know whether a woman was raped? Either you require her to prove it - which would result in thousands of women who were raped but don't have enough evidence to get an abortion having unwanted children - or you give any woman who claims to have been raped an abortion and thus encourage women to simply lie about having been raped in order to have access to abortion. No, those women shouldn't claim to have been raped to get an abortion, but the fact is that it will happen if such a system is implemented. Abortion being legal for any woman up to a reasonable point of the pregnancy just works far better as a sytem in this regard.

 

[J.T.]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

My first comprehensive response to this thread.

Abortion is murder.

Well, if you start with an unproven premise and run with it as if it's universally assumed to be true, then I can see why you'd think you have a good argument.

But, other than that, it's not. Straw, you say that it's not a baby yet

Pretty much.

or say it's only a 149/150 chance that it'll be born.

... a) I dunno anyone who would make that point, and b) the odds of a miscarriage are much much higher than that.

First, I bet that's a world rate, including countries like Botswana and Thirdworldistan.

What's that have to do with anything?

But either way, if someone had shot Obama on November 5th and was charged with assassinating the President, I highly doubt that him saying, "He wasn't president yet. He still had three months to go. And anyway, there is a 1 in 150 chance that he would've died anyway! He could've got in a car crash or caught a terminal illness," would get him off the hook.

... what makes you think he'd be charged with killing the President if he did it before he was elected?

Furthermore, Obama would still be legally protected under the law, and - this is important - is currently a living man, outside of his mother's womb, no longer feeding directly off of her in order to survive. He is able to contribute to society, make decisions, and communicate with others. Even if he isn't the President, he has legal protection under the law. A fetus? Not so much. You could say "but a fetus will be able to do these things!" But we don't deal with what will happen, we deal with what is happening. We don't let children drink just because they will be 21 someday. We don't give 25-year-olds senior pension just because they will be a senior eventually. And so on.

But pro-abortionists say exactly that.

Strawmen are fun.

If you're stuck with a baby before college, suck it up, that's what you get for having unprotected sex.

Oh, you're pleasant. Because a kid who's in high school can totally raise a child. And what if they did have safe sex, but it failed? What if he put the condom on wrong? What if there was a hole? What if she didn't take her contraceptives properly? With the advent of male birth control pills, what if the man lied and said he'd taken his?

And furthermore, if a kid trips on the sidewalk and gets a concussion, we don't say "it's your fault for not tying your shoes properly, so I'm not calling an ambulance". Your logic is extremely shaky.

And if you absolutely positively can't pay for a baby, it's called adoption. Look it up.

First off, giving birth isn't free. Hospital bills can get pretty damn high (I'm not sure if your new healthcare system covers that, but I know that's how it used to be) when you're giving birth. By comparison, Planned Parenthood provides free abortions. Hm. But okay, you could always give birth outside of a hospital! Well, do you have a midwife? Because they're not usually free either. If you can get one for free, I hope they know what they're doing, in case something goes wrong. And if you don't have one? Well, then, you better hope your pregnancy goes absolutely perfect. If that kid needs so much as a C-section, you're screwed. Unless you have a competent midwife (and I'm pretty sure, again, that they're not usually free), any little complication could end in injury or death to you and the baby.

And that's ignoring the fact that up until then, you are spending nine months carrying and feeding what is essentially a parasite living directly off you, forcing you to eat more in order to sustain it, spend more for said food, take maternity leave from your job, miss schooling, and more. Then there's the possibility of morning sickness, post-partum depression, and all those other unpleasant things associated with pregnancy. Finally, illegalizing abortion will not prevent anyone from trying to get rid of the fetus, they'll just find more and more dangerous ways to do it - throwing themselves down flights of stairs in an attempt to cause miscarriage, trying to get it with a coat hanger, that sort of thing. Illegalizing abortion will do more harm than good.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

2. It is a sad fact that a ton of people kill in the name of religion. But why do they do this? The bible never tells us to go off killing other people just because they have a different belief set than us.

I've read the Bible multiple times and I can tell you that yes, the Bible not only tells Christians to kill non-Christians, but does it repeatedly. Much of the Old Testament consists of nothing more than the Israelites journeying the world smiting heathens.

 

[Michi]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

ALL I am going to say about abortion is that a woman should have a choice until a child's brain is mostly developed, which I believe is in the fifth week, and after that it's up to beliefs - however, I view it as immoral to abort after 5 weeks.

How is it that a general theism debate has formed into every major debate but for homosexuality/bisexuality? Can't we just argue about God? :P

And I myself am scared as hell by death. I really don't want to think about death, I'd rather live every waking second brain washed by the amazing "Illuminati puppet" pop star who I pretty much worship. I hate death. Even as an atheist, I don't have an exact view on an afterlife and I'd rather not find out if it exists.