Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

[Pwnemon]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

This is where Sage Noctowl's idea comes in. We all convert to Christianity originally because we're afraid about Hell as an afterlife.

 

[Michi]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Well it's not so much Hell or any underworld for me as it is just the fact that there are things in life I am much too attached to for me to die, and I couldn't stand being without them even in some sort of Heaven. My religous item is not a book or any text, it's a freaking pop music album. I am insanely materialistic and if ANYONE touches my iPods, that album, or my books, I am known to attack their grubby little hands with random items. I realize being so attached to things is wrong, but life is amazing, and unless Heaven/Hell/empty-void-of-nothingness/nonexistance has my album and a CD player or computer for that album, I am not going to like it at all. My best friends, family, and pets come in a close second as things I will not part with.

Feel free to comment on how profoundly stupid/ignorant/blind/cruel it is to feel like this, because I too think it's dumb. :P

 

[Saith]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Okay... Debate about god...

Prove, using logic and known fact, the Christian god's existence exactly as he's described in the bible.

That's pretty much what this thread's about anyway, right?

 

[Aisling]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Okay... Debate about god...

Prove, using logic and known fact, the Christian god's existence exactly as he's described in the bible.

That's pretty much what this thread's about anyway, right?

Well, you can't. That's the thing. And you can't really prove a god doesn't exist, even though you can pretty well debunk the Christian god specifically (and most others I would imagine, since they're even older and less relevant to today). This thread is also about theism in general... So to me a more interesting discussion would be why people worship a god, why they should, why they shouldn't, something like that. At least for now. When it gets to "god works in mysterious ways" that's code for "I can't accept god might be a douche so I'll just say it's a reason my human brain doesn't get" and we're probably at the end.

Though, my opinion on this "prove god" "no u" sort of thing is this: the "starting point" of belief is that there is no god, because there's no apparent reason to believe in one, until someone tells you. Now, it is up to them to prove it to you because they're (usually) trying to force its values on you and convince you that in the end it will be worth it, rather than it being up to us to disprove it in order to not have to believe in it.

 

[Pwnemon]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Well, you can't. That's the thing. And you can't really prove a god doesn't exist, even though you can pretty well debunk the Christian god specifically (and most others I would imagine, since they're even older and less relevant to today). This thread is also about theism in general... So to me a more interesting discussion would be why people worship a god, why they should, why they shouldn't, something like that. At least for now. When it gets to "god works in mysterious ways" that's code for "I can't accept god might be a douche so I'll just say it's a reason my human brain doesn't get" and we're probably at the end.

Though, my opinion on this "prove god" "no u" sort of thing is this: the "starting point" of belief is that there is no god, because there's no apparent reason to believe in one, until someone tells you. Now, it is up to them to prove it to you because they're (usually) trying to force its values on you and convince you that in the end it will be worth it, rather than it being up to us to disprove it in order to not have to believe in it.

This is exactly it. You can debate to show that a certain God is correct, or something like that, but in the end there is one thing you can't do: You cannot logically prove or disprove a God. Only a person's personal faith can dictate this, and while the rest can be logically guided, this one thing cannot.

 

[Michi]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

This is exactly it. You can debate to show that a certain God is correct, or something like that, but in the end there is one thing you can't do: You cannot logically prove or disprove a God. Only a person's personal faith can dictate this, and while the rest can be logically guided, this one thing cannot.

Some of my friends like to bring up the "If God is all powerful, then can he create a rock that he cannot move?" argument and various other paradoxes that they think disprove God; but it only disproves some characteristics of God, not his existance or his ability to create the universe. I hate when they do that, because it doesn't make them look smart and it doesn't prove darn thing, not to mention it's a bit immature.

But where did God come from? He has to have a definite creator or origin; all things do.

 

[Aisling]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

I don't think anyone here is guilty of it but my school is full of super-theists (when they feel like being that way, anyway!) who are all like "Well you should believe in god! I mean, you can't prove he doesn't exist!" but I think their first move should be to try to prove him instead of telling me to prove my point. I mean, if I told you I had a pet dragon who was ethereal and only I could see him, you wouldn't immediately believe me, even though you can't prove that's not true. The only difference is I'd be the only one who believes in my dragon, while millions of people believe in a god. Which is for some deep-rooted reason that dates back hundreds of years, I would imagine.

I guess I probably didn't sound like it earlier, but I'm totally for people believing what they want, even though I'll ask them why. My main problem is the religious usually try to force it on other people. Maybe it was of some use in keeping people organized hundreds of years ago, but I think our species is at a point where we'd be okay if we just let go of it. We can safely store food so we can eat pork and shellfish, and we're not facing extinction so there's no reason to make sure everybody is making babies instead of being in sexual relationships with the same sex, and so on. My big thing I guess is convincing people of that. Most of the people who have been in the thread so far realize this, I think, but we get those people sometimes and of course we all run into them all the time in life.

edit @ ninja Little Monster: For a god to have a creator that creator would have a creator, and it'd just go backwards forever. It's a mystery we'll probably never figure out for certain, for a long long time at least, but we don't need an explanation that comes with the extra baggage of discrimination and oppression like many religions have and had when they were still practiced.

 

[Saith]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

I figured that seeing as the only theists who've tried to force their beliefs (or at least assumed everyone shared their beliefs, and so naively insulted most of us) in this section are Christian, they should be trying to prove that the specific Christian god exists. Which is sort of what you (Alraune) said.
So yeah.

I'd like to see some Pagans* or Wiccans in here, if only so I can learn more about the religion from actual followers.

*Pagan meaning the specific religion, and not the 'barbaric' ones before Judaism.

 

[1. Luftballon]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

iirc, cirrus is a wiccan. don't quote me on that, though.

 

[Pwnemon]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Firstly, to little Monster. God never came from anywhere, he just always was. If you think about that too hard, your head will explode, I know. But in the other hand, that's the terrifying thing about the afterlife. It stretches on in the same way, which is why I'm loathe to let go of this topic. I don't want to see any of my friends, ever, on the wrong side of eternity, cuz once you get there there's no redemption and no end.

Now, although it's already been stated that one cannot prove or disprove God, I will do my best to meet Saith's challenge by stating my reasons for it:

1) The big flaw of the Big Bang: as Alruanne stated, something can't come out of nothing using laws of physics. However, the big bang states at one point all matter was condensed into one point. Where did that come from? Repeating this question can only cause two possible answers: something somewhere came out of nothing, in which case you just admitted that supernatural powers exist, or something was always there, in which case the possibility of a God is not farther off than a possibility of a dense speck of matter.

2) This is going to sound painfully phony, but with all the elements that needed to fall perfectly into place to allow Earth to sustain any life, let alone a sentient race, is so impossible to accept without acknowledging a divine God. Had we been a few thousand miles closer to or farther from the sun, had our atmospherebeen composed any differently, etc. Etc. Etc, we would not exist. How all of these could fall so perfectly into place at the same planet is almost inconceivable without a divine presence overlooking it.

3) It gives my life a meaning. I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but I feel so bad for people without a belief in God. Their lives are ultimately completely pointless, and I would hate to be alive like that. To have no greater purpose for life, just sounds so depressing.

4) Wouldn't you hate it if there really was an afterlife? Think, if Christianity was right, then when you died, you would be doomed to burn eternally in a lake of fire. Eternally as in, it would never end. This wouldn't be some thousand years and you fade to black thing. You would never stop burning. Even after a hundred googol years. Even after that multiplied by itself. After that factor cubed. I don't want to come off as sadistic, I'm just trying to implant the severity of it. Wouldn't you want to be saved from that?

That's my Big 4 as to why I believe in a God. When I think up more later, I'll probably post them.

 

[Aisling]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

1) The big flaw of the Big Bang almost any and all theories concerning the origin of the universe

Just wanted to make sure this part was clear.

2) This is going to sound painfully phony, but with all the elements that needed to fall perfectly into place to allow Earth to sustain any life, let alone a sentient race, is so impossible to accept without acknowledging a divine God. Had we been a few thousand miles closer to or farther from the sun, had our atmosphere been composed any differently, etc. Etc. Etc, we would not exist. How all of these could fall so perfectly into place at the same planet is almost inconceivable without a divine presence overlooking it.

Improbable isn't the same thing as impossible. I'mma link you to another video that illustrates this point really well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOkFErxebgE (I'm not a very eloquent person so I'm really glad there are some eloquent ones out there) There are billions upon billions of stars! There was a photograph taken with one of those satellite cameras that focused on the space between two stars. The photo that came back had at least 10,000 galaxies in it, and each one is about a trillion stars large! And each one of those stars possibly has its own set of planets, just like ours. Think about it. It's actually more inconceivable that one of those innumerable numbers of stars doesn't have a planet with life on it. Just thinking of how big outer space is and how much of its life we don't see is... almost orgasmic for me to think about, to be honest. :B

3) It gives my life a meaning. I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but I feel so bad for people without a belief in God. Their lives are ultimately completely pointless, and I would hate to be alive like that. To have no greater purpose for life, just sounds so depressing.

I can't hold that against you. This is the reason many people are religious. I find other reasons to live my life, though. From my point of view, being able to set your own meaning/purpose of life (or being okay with not having a greater purpose) is a great thing in itself.

4) Wouldn't you hate it if there really was an afterlife? Think, if Christianity was right, then when you died, you would be doomed to burn eternally in a lake of fire. Eternally as in, it would never end. This wouldn't be some thousand years and you fade to black thing. You would never stop burning. Even after a hundred googol years. Even after that multiplied by itself. After that factor cubed. I don't want to come off as sadistic, I'm just trying to implant the severity of it. Wouldn't you want to be saved from that?

I think this is known as Pascal's Wager or something like that. There are so many different religions and different branches of each of those religions, and each one claims it's the right one and all of the others are wrong in some way. The odds of chosing the "right" one that would land you in heaven are worse than a crapshoot. I'd rather not bother at all. I'd rather live my life the way I want to than place all my bets on one unlikely thing.

 

[1. Luftballon]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Firstly, to little Monster. God never came from anywhere, he just always was. If you think about that too hard, your head will explode, I know. But in the other hand, that's the terrifying thing about the afterlife. It stretches on in the same way, which is why I'm loathe to let go of this topic. I don't want to see any of my friends, ever, on the wrong side of eternity, cuz once you get there there's no redemption and no end.

why was god always?

Now, although it's already been stated that one cannot prove or disprove God, I will do my best to meet Saith's challenge by stating my reasons for it:

1) The big flaw of the Big Bang: as Alruanne stated, something can't come out of nothing using laws of physics. However, the big bang states at one point all matter was condensed into one point. Where did that come from? Repeating this question can only cause two possible answers: something somewhere came out of nothing, in which case you just admitted that supernatural powers exist, or something was always there, in which case the possibility of a God is not farther off than a possibility of a dense speck of matter.

but one is confirmed. the other, not so much.

I'm sure I can find something to show that big bang is more likely than god, but you wouldn't read it anyway.

2) This is going to sound painfully phony, but with all the elements that needed to fall perfectly into place to allow Earth to sustain any life, let alone a sentient race, is so impossible to accept without acknowledging a divine God. Had we been a few thousand miles closer to or farther from the sun, had our atmospherebeen composed any differently, etc. Etc. Etc, we would not exist. How all of these could fall so perfectly into place at the same planet is almost inconceivable without a divine presence overlooking it.

if it hadn't happened, you wouldn't be here arguing about it. I think it's called survivor's bias or something like that.

3) It gives my life a meaning. I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but I feel so bad for people without a belief in God. Their lives are ultimately completely pointless, and I would hate to be alive like that. To have no greater purpose for life, just sounds so depressing.

okay, this is going to sound cruel, but... if their lives are pointless and unproductive, do we really want them around, influencing people around them?

4) Wouldn't you hate it if there really was an afterlife? Think, if Christianity was right, then when you died, you would be doomed to burn eternally in a lake of fire. Eternally as in, it would never end. This wouldn't be some thousand years and you fade to black thing. You would never stop burning. Even after a hundred googol years. Even after that multiplied by itself. After that factor cubed. I don't want to come off as sadistic, I'm just trying to implant the severity of it. Wouldn't you want to be saved from that?

if it's all the same, it gets boring after a while. unless there's variety in hell. or magical anti-boredom. in which case at some point I'd go mad and start having fun in hell.

That's my Big 4 as to why I believe in a God. When I think up more later, I'll probably post them.

tell me, why do you believe in a god.

 

[ultraviolet]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

4) Wouldn't you hate it if there really was an afterlife? Think, if Christianity was right, then when you died, you would be doomed to burn eternally in a lake of fire. Eternally as in, it would never end. This wouldn't be some thousand years and you fade to black thing. You would never stop burning. Even after a hundred googol years. Even after that multiplied by itself. After that factor cubed. I don't want to come off as sadistic, I'm just trying to implant the severity of it. Wouldn't you want to be saved from that?

what about all the thousands of people who have no idea about your god or your religion? if Christianity is right and all these people go to hell because of something they knew absolutely nothing about, you have a terrible, horrible god.

 

[Michi]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

Firstly, to little Monster. God never came from anywhere, he just always was. If you think about that too hard, your head will explode, I know. But in the other hand, that's the terrifying thing about the afterlife. It stretches on in the same way, which is why I'm loathe to let go of this topic. I don't want to see any of my friends, ever, on the wrong side of eternity, cuz once you get there there's no redemption and no end.

Now, although it's already been stated that one cannot prove or disprove God, I will do my best to meet Saith's challenge by stating my reasons for it:

1) The big flaw of the Big Bang: as Alruanne stated, something can't come out of nothing using laws of physics. However, the big bang states at one point all matter was condensed into one point. Where did that come from? Repeating this question can only cause two possible answers: something somewhere came out of nothing, in which case you just admitted that supernatural powers exist, or something was always there, in which case the possibility of a God is not farther off than a possibility of a dense speck of matter.

2) This is going to sound painfully phony, but with all the elements that needed to fall perfectly into place to allow Earth to sustain any life, let alone a sentient race, is so impossible to accept without acknowledging a divine God. Had we been a few thousand miles closer to or farther from the sun, had our atmospherebeen composed any differently, etc. Etc. Etc, we would not exist. How all of these could fall so perfectly into place at the same planet is almost inconceivable without a divine presence overlooking it.

3) It gives my life a meaning. I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but I feel so bad for people without a belief in God. Their lives are ultimately completely pointless, and I would hate to be alive like that. To have no greater purpose for life, just sounds so depressing.

4) Wouldn't you hate it if there really was an afterlife? Think, if Christianity was right, then when you died, you would be doomed to burn eternally in a lake of fire. Eternally as in, it would never end. This wouldn't be some thousand years and you fade to black thing. You would never stop burning. Even after a hundred googol years. Even after that multiplied by itself. After that factor cubed. I don't want to come off as sadistic, I'm just trying to implant the severity of it. Wouldn't you want to be saved from that?

That's my Big 4 as to why I believe in a God. When I think up more later, I'll probably post them.

1) There are multiple other logical theories as to what the big bang is and was caused by. All we have proof of is a big noise happened about 13.7 billion years ago and we actually have no evidence as to what caused it; a particularly interesting theory I found once was that our universe is the product of a collision of two other universes. I won't go into all those theories because each origin needs it's own origin and so on. However, there is no reason to rule out even virtual reality or other such radical, yet scientifically feasable, theories.

2) The universe is so vast that the chances of this NOT happenning somewhere are extremely small. However, this
I find to be a somewhat valid point; we only really need to be a tiny bit closer to be dead.

3) You cannot be depressed about it if you are someone wha has not been taught that Christianity exists. And trust me, they aren't pointless; for example, China is one of the greatest influences in the modern world, yet was not created by a Christian or another Abrahamic follower. People's lives would be different without it, and it directly and indirectly could cause or prevent sins in some way. So thousands of years ago, the guy who created China was probably a normal guy like us yet his influence is still felt far after his death.

4) First off, my father and many other Christians I know happen to claim that it does end, and there is a point when these people are allowed into heaven. Your viewpoint here depends a lot on what branch of Christianity you follow. And besides, after only a few days of constant burning sensation the human body would get used to it; it may even be so adapted that it would feel as normal as being in the air we are in right now. I'm sure I could remember a few Lady Gaga tunes to pass the time, talk to other denizens of Hell, and actually have a bit of fun.

 

[Autumn]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

2) This is going to sound painfully phony, but with all the elements that needed to fall perfectly into place to allow Earth to sustain any life, let alone a sentient race, is so impossible to accept without acknowledging a divine God. Had we been a few thousand miles closer to or farther from the sun, had our atmospherebeen composed any differently, etc. Etc. Etc, we would not exist. How all of these could fall so perfectly into place at the same planet is almost inconceivable without a divine presence overlooking it.

You're forgetting the fact that all species have their origins in evolution (and you agree to evolution, by your own admission). If the earth had been closer or father to/from the sun, surely things would have happened so that all the species to emerge through evolution would be adapted to changed conditions?

3) It gives my life a meaning. I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but I feel so bad for people without a belief in God. Their lives are ultimately completely pointless, and I would hate to be alive like that. To have no greater purpose for life, just sounds so depressing.

Life has no point. Life never had a point, for any non-human species. But humans have developed a superiority complex from being the only animal with true sentience, and we believe that we should be special and our lives should have a point. The only point life ever has is what you give it. If you want to live your whole life following a certain set of beliefs because you think it will let you get into a certain afterlife, be my guest. The point of life for me, and probably most other atheists as well, is to have fun and live it the way I want to, without being pressured into doing things because a deity I don't even believe in tells me to.

 

[Pwnemon]

Leafpool, if you stuck around, I said I believed in the idea of natural selection, not that man evolved from apes. In other words, I believe in what the question originally asked- evolution- but not in what you said I did- the theory of evolution.

 

[Espeon]

...Natural selection is the process by which evolution happens. You can't believe in natural selection and not believe in evolution.

If you were to compare a human and a great ape's physiology and morphology, you would find a lot of similarities. Heck, there are even similarities in the bones of a human hand, bat's wing, whale's fin and horse's hooves. The bones are said to be homologus. Same bones, just a different shape for a different adaptation. If a horse and a whale have common features, it's really not a long stretch to say that humans are a descendant of apes. All of those animals will, at some point, have evolved from a common ancestor. They will share phylogenics.

 

[Minish]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

I'd like to see some Pagans* or Wiccans in here, if only so I can learn more about the religion from actual followers.

*Pagan meaning the specific religion, and not the 'barbaric' ones before Judaism.

Just so you know, what you're talking about is neopaganism. Those 'barbaric' ones are indigenous religions, specifically followers of polytheism, e.g. the ancient Hellenes, the Celts, the Anglo-Saxon/Old Norse, etc.

It's good that you want to learn, by the way - are Christians genuinely conditioned into believing that pagans/neopagans/Wiccans are evil and Satanic? There aren't many Christians where I live, but this random old Christian lady does like to screech at me and my Wiccan friend every time she sees us, telling us we're horrible excuses for human beings and should go die. :D Kind of odd thinking that if she's right, that beastly woman will be going to heaven!

3) It gives my life a meaning. I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but I feel so bad for people without a belief in God. Their lives are ultimately completely pointless, and I would hate to be alive like that. To have no greater purpose for life, just sounds so depressing.

If your only purpose in life is to find eternal salvation in heaven, then don't you think you're wasting it a bit? Being a good person only because you have been told to be so, lest you go to hell. To me, that kind of a life seems painfully empty and very depressing.

I am a theist, by the way, I suppose, although slightly agnostic (I think it's healthy to always be at least somewhat agnostic). But I believe that life is meant to be here, on earth, during life. Why do you spend all your time wishing and hoping and praying and doing good so that you end up in a place or state of being that you have only come to know through a book, through others' teachings?

4) Wouldn't you hate it if there really was an afterlife? Think, if Christianity was right, then when you died, you would be doomed to burn eternally in a lake of fire. Eternally as in, it would never end. This wouldn't be some thousand years and you fade to black thing. You would never stop burning. Even after a hundred googol years. Even after that multiplied by itself. After that factor cubed. I don't want to come off as sadistic, I'm just trying to implant the severity of it. Wouldn't you want to be saved from that?

Bit circular, don't you think? To believe that I might be eternally burnt in hell means that I already believe in heaven and hell. Non-Christians aren't non-Christians who are just hoping that they don't go to hell, because they don't believe it exists whatsoever. You don't believe in hell by default, this is what children are taught from a book, by others. Your argument makes no sense - to believe I can be saved from hell if I just open by eyes to Christ or whatever, I would have to already believe in hell.

 

[opaltiger]

Re: The to-be short lived theism thread

1) The big flaw of the Big Bang: as Alruanne stated, something can't come out of nothing using laws of physics. However, the big bang states at one point all matter was condensed into one point. Where did that come from? Repeating this question can only cause two possible answers: something somewhere came out of nothing, in which case you just admitted that supernatural powers exist, or something was always there, in which case the possibility of a God is not farther off than a possibility of a dense speck of matter.

The answer, probably, is that the universe has always existed in some way or another (although note that time didn't exist before the Big Bang; this makes the question somewhat useless). That doesn't make god just as likely. If the universe has always existed, there is no need for god. God is entirely superfluous; Occam's Razor in action!

2) This is going to sound painfully phony, but with all the elements that needed to fall perfectly into place to allow Earth to sustain any life, let alone a sentient race, is so impossible to accept without acknowledging a divine God. Had we been a few thousand miles closer to or farther from the sun, had our atmospherebeen composed any differently, etc. Etc. Etc, we would not exist. How all of these could fall so perfectly into place at the same planet is almost inconceivable without a divine presence overlooking it.

This is known as incredulity in hindsight. If our planet hadn't been precisely positioned to make the origin of life possible, you wouldn't be here asking yourself how that could have happened. In fact it must have happened, since you are here asking yourself how it could have happened. There are, as has been pointed out, inconceivably many planets in the universe, and at least one certainly would have had the right conditions for life; if not this one, there would be an intelligent race on some other planet asking themselves the same question. Do you see? This argument is completely useless.

3) It gives my life a meaning. I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but I feel so bad for people without a belief in God. Their lives are ultimately completely pointless, and I would hate to be alive like that. To have no greater purpose for life, just sounds so depressing.

Please don't tell me my life is pointless. I find that quite insulting. And you know what, I do have a greater purpose in life - it is to enjoy life. This is enough for me because I'm not conceited enough to believe humans are better than any other species. See also the quote in my signature.

4) Wouldn't you hate it if there really was an afterlife? Think, if Christianity was right, then when you died, you would be doomed to burn eternally in a lake of fire. Eternally as in, it would never end. This wouldn't be some thousand years and you fade to black thing. You would never stop burning. Even after a hundred googol years. Even after that multiplied by itself. After that factor cubed. I don't want to come off as sadistic, I'm just trying to implant the severity of it. Wouldn't you want to be saved from that?

There are very few people who follow the Bible completely. Thus, technically, everyone is probably going to hell. Or, god will say "eh, okay, some of those rules were a bit outdated, I guess you guys can go to heaven too". In which case I'm sure he can also find it in his omnibenevolent heart to forgive us unbelievers because, after all, we are unbelievers for a perfectly good reason and are, for the most part, perfectly good people.

What you're saying is that you believe in god because you're scared of hell. That you follow the rules because you're scared of hell. I'm sorry, to me that doesn't sound like true belief - it sounds like you're out to save your own skin.

 

[Saith]

I didn't realise that I may have sounded disdainful towards pagans/wiccans, but it wasn't intentional. Sorry. : )

Also, though I don't agree with what I'm saying, just because we wouldn't be here if the world wasn't perfect, it doesn't make the fact that it is perfect any less .
I was gonne type it all out, but then I remembered google, so:

Suppose that a madman kidnaps a victim and shuts him in a room with a card‑shuffling machine. The machine shuffles ten decks of cards simultaneously and then draws a card from each deck and exhibits simultaneously the ten cards. The kidnapper tells the victim that he will shortly set the machine to work and it will exhibit its first draw, but that unless the draw consists of an ace of hearts from each deck, the machine will simultaneously set off an explosion which will kill the victim, in consequence of which he will not see which cards the machine drew. The machine is then set to work, and to the amazement and relief of the victim the machine exhibits an ace of hearts drawn from each deck. The victim thinks that this extraordinary fact needs an explanation in terms of the machine having been rigged in some way. But the kidnapper, who now reappears, casts doubt on this suggestion. 'It is hardly surprising', he says, 'that the machine draws only aces of hearts. You could not possibly see anything else. For you would not be here to see anything at all, if any other cards had been drawn.'

tl;dr Just because we wouldn't be here to explain the perfect location of Earth if it was any different, doesn't mean it doesn't need an explanation.


*http://mind.ucsd.edu/syllabi/02-03/01w/readings/swinburne-design.html


e: Pwnemon: Even if that did prove a god (which, I admit, was an unfair request), it doesn't prove the Christian god. It just means that you find the evidence in the favour of a god sufficient to cast your belief in one. It doesn't, however, prove Christianity over Hinduism. It could be any religion that's correct, you only cast your vote with Christianity because of where you grew up. I can't remember who's it is, but I'm pretty sure that's known as Someone's Roulette.