Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

[opaltiger]

Of course it doesn't. The world is only perfect from our point of view; it's us, as living beings, who require it to be a certain way. The fact that we are here accounts for its perfection.

Besides, random chance explains it just fine. Out of so many planets, the odds of any one being "perfect" are actually quite high.

EDIT: also that is a bad analogy. The kidnapped man knows, in advance, what combination he needs to live; that doesn't make the fact that that combination is shown any less remarkable. That is comparable to some being, observing all the planets as they form, predicting on which life would eventually form. You see, the fact that the kidnapped man is able to see the drawn cards is not a certainty. In other words, although the kidnapper is right in saying that those cards are the only ones the man could possibly see, that doesn't mean he must see them - death was still a far, far likelier alternative. Compare to the topic at hand: in order for people to wonder about the Earth's perfection (i.e. see the cards) they must have evolved on Earth (i.e. the ten aces must have been drawn). If you predict in advance an unlikely event, that is remarkable. But if you comment on an unlikely event which has occurred, but on which the fact that you are there depends, that is certainty. Conditional probability, my friend.

EDIT:

Leafpool, if you stuck around, I said I believed in the idea of natural selection, not that man evolved from apes. In other words, I believe in what the question originally asked- evolution- but not in what you said I did- the theory of evolution.

So, wait, you think that all animals evolved... except for humans?

 

[Saith]

Well yeah, that's what I believe, it's just that some people were using Survivor's Bias as proof against creationism.

 

[Minish]

I didn't realise that I may have sounded disdainful towards pagans/wiccans, but it wasn't intentional. Sorry. : )

You didn't at all, don't worry. I just thought I'd correct your terminology. ^^

Even if that did prove a god (which, I admit, was an unfair request), it doesn't prove the Christian god. It just means that you find the evidence in the favour of a god sufficient to cast your belief in one. It doesn't, however, prove Christianity over Hinduism. It could be any religion that's correct, you only cast your vote with Christianity because of where you grew up. I can't remember who's it is, but I'm pretty sure that's known as Someone's Roulette.

I still don't get why there's such competition between religions. Even though many religions do believe that there's is the 'one true faith' (which I find exceedingly arrogant and misguided anyway), I don't think there's one true path to experiencing divinity (obviously this only works if you 'believe' in divinity existing).

If divinity does exist, there is no way we're going to have even a moderate bit of understanding for it. It's going to be something totally over our heads if it created us without us being able to understand or comprehend it. So why does there have to be only one way to find 'the truth', if it even matters? I couldn't live as a Christian, partly because I detest the idea of a massive patriarchal omnipotent father god who's a bit of a douche, and I have big issues with horrendous concepts like sin and a 'pure evil' in the form of a devil. But other people can, it makes them happy, and they feel as though they experience divinity through prayer, miracles etc. Religion shouldn't be about proselytising, holy wars and forcing vulnerable people over to your way of thinking.

But of course, it probably always will be. I just seriously don't understand the general Christian viewpoint on most things, it seems horribly unhealthy, including the ideas of heaven, hell, and 'eternal salvation'.

 

[Saith]

My cynical view on it is that religious leaders just want the power, and so need more followers than others.
But of course that can't be it.

e: You're English? Damn, I didn't realise the UK still had Christians, let alone crazy ones.

 

[Pwnemon]

SettiIng-record-straight time!

It is perfectly possible to believe in Natural Selection but not Evolution. I believe that God created all the animals, but that doesn't keep them from adapting to their environments.

my life's point is not to prevent going to Hell. It's to serve the Lord.

third, Opaltiger. You got the idea of Christianity all completely wrong. Its point is that you can't perfectly follow all the rules, which is why God sent Jesus to die. As long as you believe Jesus is God's son, you can go ti heaven, no other requirements. So all Christians will go to heaven.

I probably missed a lot, but I gotta go now.

 

[Saith]

A loving god wouldn't have a hell.
A fair god wouldn't allow George Bush into heaven.
I am unable to be satisfied.

 

[Flora]

As long as you believe Jesus is God's son, you can go ti heaven, no other requirements. So all Christians will go to heaven.

waitwaitwait.

I swear to God the one thing I kept out of freshman Theology is that if a person is good in God's eyes, they'll go to heaven regardless of religion. (so long as you don't convert out of Christianity, but that part's just ridiculous.)

 

[1. Luftballon]

It is perfectly possible to believe in Natural Selection but not Evolution. I believe that God created all the animals, but that doesn't keep them from adapting to their environments.

I'm not sure what you think you're saying there, but I'm sure it's not what you're saying.

 

[Minish]

As long as you believe Jesus is God's son, you can go ti heaven, no other requirements. So all Christians will go to heaven.

Wait, so all the 'evil' Christians in the world (we know there've been many of them) go to heaven, but all the truly good people who've never heard of Jesus don't?

How can you possibly believe this?

 

[opaltiger]

It is perfectly possible to believe in Natural Selection but not Evolution. I believe that God created all the animals, but that doesn't keep them from adapting to their environments.

But... animals adapting to their environments is evolution. Either you don't understand the term natural selection or you don't understand the term evolution. Natural selection is the process which explains evolution. You can't say you "believe in" it and not evolution.

 

[hopeandjoy]

As long as you believe Jesus is God's son, you can go ti heaven, no other requirements. So all Christians will go to heaven.

Say hi to Hitler for me when you die then.

What? He was a Christian.

Also, the Paleoanthropologist in me is laughing at the fact you think that Natural Selection can be true, but evolution cannot.

Natural Selection is the possess that we have evidence that evolution runs with. Adapting to one's environment over large amounts of time is the very definition of evolution.

It's too bad that most people think that human evolution means "monkey->chimp->human" and then go "hurr durr, I'm not descended from an ape!"

Because, their right, we aren't.

We're descended from a common ancestor. [/rant]

 

[Zuu]

As long as you believe Jesus is God's son, you can go ti heaven, no other requirements. So all Christians will go to heaven.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2:24

 

[ultraviolet]

As long as you believe Jesus is God's son, you can go ti heaven, no other requirements. So all Christians will go to heaven.

again, since you didn't seem to read my post:

what about all the thousands of people who have no idea about your god or your religion? if Christianity is right and all these people go to hell because of something they knew absolutely nothing about, you have a terrible, horrible god.

what kind of benevolent god punishes people who know nothing about him or his teachings?

 

[voltianqueen]

What happened to the people that were around before Christianity came about? :/

 

[Music Dragon]

Debates between atheists and religious believers are impossible to resolve for the same reason you can't win a game of chess if you're playing against someone who doesn't know the rules, and is instead fervently hammering on the bars of a marimba with a crosier.

 

[Espeon]

Debates between atheists and religious believers are impossible to resolve for the same reason you can't win a game of chess if you're playing against someone who doesn't know the rules, and is instead fervently hammering on the bars of a marimba with a crosier.

Both sides are very clear cut about their views and are more than often not, unwilling to change them or view things from the other person's perspective. The problems I tend to have with any form of extremism is that the arguments just get riddiculous. From atheists, Christians, Muslims and Sikhs alike. It's probably one of the main reasons that I am an agonostic. :x

 

[Saith]

A better analogy would be playing a game of chess with each side only having a king and a pawn left. Sure, it's possible to win, but it'll be difficult, time consuming, and the amount of points you'll get will be minimal.

 

[Music Dragon]

A better analogy would be playing a game of chess with each side only having a king and a pawn left. Sure, it's possible to win, but it'll be difficult, time consuming, and the amount of points you'll get will be minimal.

You're not much of a chess person, are you?

 

[Saith]

Nah, what did I say wrong?

 

[Superbird]

Get both pawns into queens; Chaos ensues.

I beleive there is a heaven, but it's not reserved for a specific religion. I think that heaven is based on Karma: If you were a good person, you'll go to heaven. If you were a bad person, you won't.