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Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

But you can't have free will and God. Not to mention if he was omniscient, he knows who will follow him out of love - why does he need to test it using an apple?

The logic is barking mad.

You're making God sound like a human being. He wants to be loved, then when they don't, he throws a hissy fit and puts a curse on them. He doesn't seem like a mature figure, this God person.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

In Absentia said:
But you can't have free will and God. Not to mention if he was omniscient, he knows who will follow him out of love - why does he need to test it using an apple?

The logic is barking mad.
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Just because he's omniscient doesn't mean he has to cause everything that happens. Also, not everything God does is a test- this isn't either. He's not seeing if Adam and Eve love him, he's giving them the chance not to. You ever heard the phrase, "If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, it's yours?" He doesn't want some humans in bondage forced to love him. As much as I'm sure it hurt to make the fruit and know it would be eaten, it was the only way to actually give humans free will- giving them sin as an option.

You're making God sound like a human being. He wants to be loved, then when they don't, he throws a hissy fit and puts a curse on them. He doesn't seem like a mature figure, this God person.
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Except in the world of humans, not loving someone wouldn't be evil. But God is all that is good and holy, so not loving him would mean not loving goodness- aka loving bad, aka sin. Eating the fruit when God told them not to would be sin, and God can't have sin in his perfect Garden, so he put them in the imperfect world.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Pwnemon said:
Just because he's omniscient doesn't mean he has to cause everything that happens. Also, not everything God does is a test- this isn't either. He's not seeing if Adam and Eve love him, he's giving them the chance not to. You ever heard the phrase, "If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, it's yours?" He doesn't want some humans in bondage forced to love him. As much as I'm sure it hurt to make the fruit and know it would be eaten, it was the only way to actually give humans free will- giving them sin as an option.
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But then why would he need an apple to cause free will. He could have just presented himself favourably like any human being and not bother with the stupid free will and Garden of Eden thing. The whole thing is entirely nasty and botched.



Except in the world of humans, not loving someone wouldn't be evil. But God is all that is good and holy, so not loving him would mean not loving goodness- aka loving bad, aka sin. Eating the fruit when God told them not to would be sin, and God can't have sin in his perfect Garden, so he put them in the imperfect world.
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Why is God all that is good and holy? Surely this is a very arrogant statement coming from someone who punishes all of humanity for not loving him. You're still making it sound like God is a jealous lover. ;)
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

In Absentia said:
But then why would he need an apple to cause free will. He could have just presented himself favourably like any human being and not bother with the stupid free will and Garden of Eden thing. The whole thing is entirely nasty and botched.
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First of all, fruit. Second, by presenting Himself as human, there is free will? ~It does not follow... (or I misunderstood your post and you meant that God shouldn't have given any free will at all because it is stupid?)


Why is God all that is good and holy? Surely this is a very arrogant statement coming from someone who punishes all of humanity for not loving him. You're still making it sound like God is a jealous lover. ;)
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Ever heard of punishing someone so he will not make the same mistake again? Also, God didn't punish all humanity for not loving Him. Adam and Eve were banished because of disobedience, not not loving Him.

I can't think of a way to rephrase not not loving... >.>
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

In Absentia said:
Why is God all that is good and holy? Surely this is a very arrogant statement coming from someone who punishes all of humanity for not loving him. You're still making it sound like God is a jealous lover. ;)
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God is also perfectly just, which means he punishes people as they deserve it. However He gives grace which is why He sent Jesus.

I can't think of a way to rephrase not not loving... >.>
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not for not loving?
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

i'm saying all of this without referencing scripture (because i think the Bible is more or less useless in most cases) so correct me if i've gotten anything wrong. also i'm incoherent because it was like nine when i wrote this

But then why would he need an apple to cause free will. He could have just presented himself favourably like any human being and not bother with the stupid free will and Garden of Eden thing. The whole thing is entirely nasty and botched.
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it's a story. it's not necessarily well-written. you have to look at everything symbolically, otherwise it often makes little sense. it's like taking Dr. Seuss at face value and criticising it for being unrealistic.

Why is God all that is good and holy? Surely this is a very arrogant statement coming from someone who punishes all of humanity for not loving him. You're still making it sound like God is a jealous lover. ;)
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would you not agree that justice is a "good" thing? it's not like God is a sadist, sitting up on His golden throne just waiting to throw people into the pit. God Himself is essentially the abstract concept of love. i disagree with Pwnemon here - i would think that God would want us to love everyone - that's why we're here. that's why He used Jesus as a teacher. Jesus would give us grace. we'd be able to love, conquer the hate in our hearts, and overcome all of our differences. God isn't going to solve all of our problems with His own hands. that's not His job. that's completely against the point. it's up to us to fix everything wrong with the human race in order to live up to God's love. if someone continues to deny this and does evil, then it would be reasonable for God to try to punish it, presumably on Earth. in any case, it's not like God isn't capable of forgiveness. He loves the sinner and hates the sin. He isn't a jealous lover, He's just an idealist. ;)
 
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Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

it's a story. it's not necessarily well-written. you have to look at everything symbolically, otherwise it often makes little sense. it's like taking Dr. Seuss at face value and criticising it for being unrealistic.
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So we're all guilty of sin for a SYMBOLIC misdemeanour conceived by old men in some ancient story?
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

But then why would he need an apple to cause free will. He could have just presented himself favourably like any human being and not bother with the stupid free will and Garden of Eden thing. The whole thing is entirely nasty and botched.
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The apple didn't cause free will. If they didn't have free will before that they wouldn't have been able to eat the apple.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Then what is the whole bloody point of giving it to them? If God knows they have free will, why bother with an apple and saying HERE'S A TREE YOU CAN'T EAT FROM knowing full well humans are like kids and will touch the cookie jar if they are told not to?

It just doesn't make any goddamn sense

If they didn't have free will before that they wouldn't have been able to eat the apple.
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God is omnipotent and could make this happen.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

IT'S A FRUITFRUITFRUIT. It is /not/ an apple.

okay, that's out of my system. The reason the fruit had to be there so that they could exercise free will. no point in saying, "okay here's free will now there's no choice for you to express it on."
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

In Absentia said:
So we're all guilty of sin for a SYMBOLIC misdemeanour conceived by old men in some ancient story?
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i don't interpret it as being guilty of sin but rather being all too well capable of it.

Adam and Eve = obvious
the Garden of Eden = an original state of innocence and grace (perhaps ignorance)
the fruit of knowledge = obvious
the serpent = curiosity, i suppose (a well known and universal human trait) or something similar; the feeling that arises with the temptation to do something that is "against the rules". note that there is seemingly nothing morally wrong with what Eve did, it was just against the single-most important rule that God had set for them.

you would be silly to assert that you're not capable of doing anything morally wrong and that you didn't inherit this character trait from your ancestors, biologically. the human race began as innocent/ignorant (it's idealist, yeah) -> curiosity began to overpower us -> we "fell" from grace due to the realisation of good and evil or whatever. not everyone had the same desire to do just good and not evil.

or, alternatively, you could almost take Adam and Eve as representing a newborn and the Garden of Eden as the same state of innocence, then as they grow up (sort of how Adam and Eve did) they gain more and more knowledge until their initial grace is lost.

and I wish you wouldn't squabble about the fruit/apple thing, i think it's obvious In Absentia is doing it on purpose :|a
 
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Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

I realize he's doing it on purpose, and that it doesn't matter, but I have this OCD that I just can't see someone be wrong and leave it uncorrected. Sort of like how I die a little inside whenever I see someone misspell "definitely" with an "a".

back on topic, it kind of defeats the whole point of a theological argument to treat the whole bible as an allegory. (Unless of course the argument is as to whether the bible is an allegory).
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Pwnemon: Out of simple curiosity, do you believe that Adam and Eve story literally happened? What about the first part of Genesis, where God makes the world in seven days? Do you believe in evolution?
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Yes @ adam and eve. @ the creation story, i believe the seven days creation was possible, though passages like a day to God being a thousand years could make evolution possible as well.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Pwnemon said:
Yes @ adam and eve. @ the creation story, i believe the seven days creation was possible, though passages like a day to God being a thousand years could make evolution possible as well.
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unfortunately i think it is self-evident from the creation story itself that it's false; the order in which things are created is the biggest problem. if you allow that the order would be different as well, then i suppose your hypothesis wouldn't be too dishonest, but then you might as well just compose a new story altogether.
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Yes @ adam and eve. @ the creation story, i believe the seven days creation was possible, though passages like a day to God being a thousand years could make evolution possible as well.
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Eh? Well, obviously a day to God would have to be a heck of a lot more than a thousand years, but that's irrelavant.

As for Adam and Eve, well. It's useless to argue little theological things like this that don't matter in the long run, even though it's possible. How's this:

What is God?

How can I prove His existance?
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

are you asking Pwnemon specifically? one of those questions i conjectured/flailed about in a previous post (so i hope that doesn't mean that you didn't read it) and the other one seems fairly obvious to me especially coming from an atheist.

Pwnemon said:
back on topic, it kind of defeats the whole point of a theological argument to treat the whole bible as an allegory. (Unless of course the argument is as to whether the bible is an allegory).
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how so?
 
Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

are you asking Pwnemon specifically? one of those questions i conjectured/flailed about in a previous post (so i hope that doesn't mean that you didn't read it) and the other one seems fairly obvious to me especially coming from an atheist.
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Not really, but he's who I had in mind.

And, uh. Where? I've been keeping tabs on the thread, and I didn't see it anywhere. :/ You're probably right, in which case you can ignore what I asked, but the questions really usually ends the arguing in my experiance because theists only can really usually manage strawmen or handwaves.

But, whatever. Everyone's a lot smarter than me here.
 
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