Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

[Ether's Bane]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Well, in South Carolina, it's pretty much 92% Christian, 1% Jew, 7% non-religious. I'm pretty sure we're in the top 10 most religious states.

To illustrate, the recent liberal Democratic candidate for governor was pro-life, anti-gay. That's literally how bad it is.

According to this link, the exact statistics for where I live are 60.4% Muslim, 19.2% Buddhist, 9.1% Christian, 6.3% Hindu, 2.6% mixed Chinese, 1.5% other, 0.8% non-religious. ZERO POINT MOTHERFUCKING EIGHT PERCENT. Yeah...

@Inept: Speaking as someone who's only been atheist for less than a year in probably one of the most religious societies on earth, I totally feel your pain. My dad's Christian and my mom's Buddhist, so it would be awkward to mention this to either of them (for me, at least). None of my friends are atheist/agnostic, and they'd probably have a bad reaction to it - once, in school back when I was 10, the teacher asked us what religion we belonged to, and something like this soon ensued between the teacher and one girl.

Teacher: Joanna*, why didn't you raise your hand for any of the religions?
Joanna: Because I'm an atheist.
Teacher: What?
Joanna: It means that I don't believe in God.

*The name has been changed to protect privacy.

At least seven kids bullied her over the proceeding week because of that.

Anyway, dude, I really get what you're going through. We're pretty much in the same boat here - I'm 99% sure my dad would flip out if they found out that I was an atheist. My mum probably wouldn't take it so heavily, but it would still be awkward. So, yeah, I can totally relate to what you're saying in some ways.

 

[Autumn]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Or, you know, because stealing is kinda a shitty thing to do.

If only everybody thought that way. But alas...

 

[shy ♡]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

It's something I would never do to my future children, but my Dad did it and I'm not really bitter. :/ He really only ever pulls it out as a last resort (it hasn't been used on me for a year or two) - which is why I was so appalled that he threatened it when we were debating. It also helps that he always explained himself before and after he did it ("Stealing is wrong because it's a sin- kneel over *whap until I begin crying* - stealing is wrong because it's a sin) and of course the reasoning was useless seeing as I'm an athiest now but it worked well back then and was valid enough. I'm not advocating it or anything, but it worked for me.

I'm taking this a bit off-topic, sorry. (Also it's spelled atheist - e before i.) Anyhow.

Since you say you were 'appalled' at your father threatening to belt you, it seems you do bear some resentment. Regardless - like you said, he only uses it as a last resort? Which is another point. It's used when a parent doesn't know what else to do to get their point across. If the child won't listen, hit them. It's the simplest way of getting the child to shut up and obey, because it appears that the kid is listening when in fact they're just keeping their thoughts to themselves in order to not be hit again.

Although I wasn't hit myself, my foster sister was, so I do have some sort of experience in the matter. She's forgiven her parents but that doesn't mean she will always feel some sort of resentment when she thinks about what happened.

Anyhow, uh, back on topic. :v

Also, on a diffirent note, Dad was asking me where I get my moral values from. I said that I make them myself - a poor choice of words for what I really think, whthat atever gives you the most personal freedom without infringing on anyone elses' freedom is generally right. He told me that I can compromise these values at any time, and in a way I think he had a point. What do you think?

Taking your morals from someone or something else (a God or a bible) and doing what you think they tell you is right because you fear repercussions is in no way better than doing what you believe is right because it's the right thing to do. Like I said, don't steal because it's wrong and not because you fear going to hell (or being belted). Same thing, different context.

 

[Pwnemon]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

So if I'm correct atheists are now the only ones with morals and Christians are retards who only act because of fear of retribution.

wow guys

 

[shy ♡]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

So if I'm correct atheists are now the only ones with morals and Christians are retards who only act because of fear of retribution.

wow guys

Yep, that's exactly what we're saying! Good job.

 

[Tarvos]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

So if I'm correct atheists are now the only ones with morals and Christians are retards who only act because of fear of retribution.

wow guys

No, merely that morality doesn't come from religion. Morality exists regardless of whether you are religious or not, and it is both inaccurate and insulting to atheists to state that they have no morals because they don't believe what you do. In fact this is one of the most insulting things you could probably ever say to any atheist.

Most atheists are full well aware of their irreligion (most people who identify as atheists do so consciously. Of course atheism is a default position, but most irreligious people who don't believe would rather describe themselves as something else because, guess what, in most countries atheist can be very stigmatic) and are very informed on their morals. They don't need some holier-than-thou Christian to come up and tell them they are moralless when they don't steal, don't kill, treat other humans with dignity and respect. They are very well aware of their right and wrongdoings and do not need a guilt complex.

We aren't saying that every Christian acts the way they does for fear of retribution. There are plenty moral Christians out there. Perhaps they realise that part of their morality is not Christian, but they reconcile it in some other way (how), or perhaps they are only vaguely Christian (i.e. raised but don't actively practice it) or perhaps their reason for religion isn't based on morality but something else.

What is genuinely baffling though, to me, is how any Christian assumes that they obtain their morality from the Bible. Obviously all the tenets in there that are responsible for morality are pretty bad examples. And if they're just allegorical (and not to be taken literally), then they're pretty bad allegories for morality.

There are plenty immoral atheists (Stalin is a good example) and probably plenty moral Christians too (Mandela). However what matters is not whether we can tot up a list and tick off who's moral and who's not. What matters if religion (or a lack of it) systematically influences morality, and it doesn't in general. People have a similar moral sense all around this planet. The only time this is ever set aside is when a person belonging to a certain religious group is being asked moral questions involving him/herself as morality.

I.e. Jews will tend to favour Jewish morality stronger and condone more things that Jews have historically done. Same for Muslims, etc. The critical factor here is that they are religious, because atheism isn't a group and there has never been any murder or killing in the name of atheism.

 

[Dragon of Fire]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Or, you know, because stealing is kinda a shitty thing to do.

Well, I was attempting to answer why we think it's a shitty thing to do. I know what I said isn't completely accurate but having legal consequences seems like a good motivation to not steal to me.

 

[Tarvos]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

No because it implies the only reason you won't act like a dick is because somebody threatens to lock you up if you act like one.

The reason we don't steal is because we wouldn't enjoy our objects being stolen.

 

[Zuu]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

why are you all using a CC thread to debate about something that crops up in nearly every Serious Business thread ever?

 

[Inept At Normal]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

why are you all using a CC thread to debate about something that crops up in nearly every Serious Business thread ever?

Because. :/ Whether or not they know it, they're providing food for thought and indirectly giving me advice on things to say to my dad. Leave them be.

 

[Zoltea]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

What is genuinely baffling though, to me, is how any Christian assumes that they obtain their morality from the Bible. Obviously all the tenets in there that are responsible for morality are pretty bad examples. And if they're just allegorical (and not to be taken literally), then they're pretty bad allegories for morality.

Did you get this from another Christian? I sure hope not. Morality comes from God, namely the Holy Spirit. The Old Testament of the Bible outlines the Law, it doesn't provide morality. The law outlined in the Bible is hardly allegorical, it's completely literal in what it states. The Law is what had to be followed before Jesus came. It was considered a burden as it didn't save them, just told them what sin was.

I honestly think a lot of people try to make arguments about the Bible while being clueless of what's actually in it. :\

 

[opaltiger]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Did you get this from another Christian? I sure hope not. Morality comes from God, namely the Holy Spirit. The Old Testament of the Bible outlines the Law, it doesn't provide morality. The law outlined in the Bible is hardly allegorical, it's completely literal in what it states. The Law is what had to be followed before Jesus came. It was considered a burden as it didn't save them, just told them what sin was.

I honestly think a lot of people try to make arguments about the Bible while being clueless of what's actually in it. :\

"Morality comes from God". What does that mean? Surely it had to have gone through someone? Or do religious people just magically know what's moral because they have a connection to god?

 

[Zuu]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Or do religious people just magically know what's moral because they have a connection to god?

actually, yes, i think that's the idea.

 

[Zoltea]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

"Morality comes from God". What does that mean? Surely it had to have gone through someone? Or do religious people just magically know what's moral because they have a connection to god?

The idea is more or less that God created a morality system within us,m to feel guilty when we sin. Obviously of course, knowledge of sin had to be present first.

 

[Crazy Linoone]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

The idea is more or less that God created a morality system within us,m to feel guilty when we sin. Obviously of course, knowledge of sin had to be present first.

Wait, so God's the one who made the first humans eat that forbidden fruit of sin or whatever*. And then God got mad at the humans and kicked them out of paradise.

I don't understand. If God wanted humans to know what sin is, why would he get mad and kick humans out of paradise after they learned what sin is?

("Because God acts in mysterious ways" is not a valid answer.)


*Unless I'm mistaken, different versions of the Bible have slightly different descriptions for this event, so I'm being vague.

 

[Zuu]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Wait, so God's the one who made the first humans eat that forbidden fruit of sin or whatever*. And then God got mad at the humans and kicked them out of paradise.

I don't understand. If God wanted humans to know what sin is, why would he get mad and kick humans out of paradise after they learned what sin is?

("Because God acts in mysterious ways" is not a valid answer.)

Satan in the form of a serpent talked Eve into doing it.

God would want us to know of sin after we inherited it after Adam and Eve's fall from grace and exile from the Garden of Eden. presumably He thought sin wouldn't even be a deal in Eden, then Satan fucked it up. so He altered his plans.

(why not?)

 

[Tarvos]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Did you get this from another Christian? I sure hope not. Morality comes from God, namely the Holy Spirit. The Old Testament of the Bible outlines the Law, it doesn't provide morality. The law outlined in the Bible is hardly allegorical, it's completely literal in what it states. The Law is what had to be followed before Jesus came. It was considered a burden as it didn't save them, just told them what sin was.

I'm talking about people. And PEOPLE follow Biblical Law like sheep.

Also what the fuck does "Morality comes from God" even mean

 

[Skylark]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Satan in the form of a serpent talked Eve into doing it.

God would want us to know of sin after we inherited it after Adam and Eve's fall from grace and exile from the Garden of Eden. presumably He thought sin wouldn't even be a deal in Eden, then Satan fucked it up. so He altered his plans.

(why not?)

Actually, it's more of - God gave Adam and Eve the freedom of choice, meaning that He knew that there's the possibility of sin, and since God is omniscient, He doesn't need to alter His plans.

 

[Tarvos]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Yeah we all know that logic sucks, because if he was omniscient he would know they'd take the apple and the sin anyway. He could have just not put it there.

 

[Pwnemon]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

But then they'd have no free will. He didn't want robots with no option but to follow him- he wants people who follow him out of love. Hence, the fruit (not apple) was the only thing giving them free will, because it was the only other option.

Then satan, like Zuu said, tricked Eve into eating the fruit, and they got tossed out.