What do you think of fellow forumgoers? (Again!)

[1. Luftballon]

zigzag I remember you existed at some point -- you were amusingly obvious in guess who at one point on the previous vb, I recall! ... also you kept getting lakestorm on my generators or something like that

 

[Autumn]

you were amusingly obvious in guess who at one point on the previous vb, I recall!

I don't remember ever participating in that but I bet I was incredibly obvious knowing my previous self

also you kept getting lakestorm on my generators or something like that

yeah i go by lakestorm on like three other forums. or well i did, then i changed my names to polymetric sesquialtera and multiphonics

 

[Mai]

Considering how a lot of what I have to say is "I like you, but we never speak", I should probably just give up on giving opinions on everyone.

Green: Did sort of disappear! I used to see him around and I liked him, I guess, but I never actually knew him.
Jolty: It's not like using it in general makes you a jerk or anything, it makes it seem like you don't care. I don't have things against people who don't use caps, it just kind of shows a person's personality in a way--a message with no caps is going to seem different than one in all caps, or one capitalized normally.
Kinova: I've seen you around and you're pretty cool! You don't appear particularly often, though, which is sort of sad.
Poly: Knows a lot about music and everything! I... am not very good with music, but yeah, I like you. Hearing about your music stories is/was still interesting!

 

[Kinova]

Hi Mai! You were dragonair back in the OS, right? You're cool. :) Actually, that's a point - shout out to the OS bunch for being top-notch doodler folk! I'm attempting to be more active here, as well! (Kicking the lurker habit is tricky.)

The all-lowercase thing used to really bug me, too! Then I cottoned on that they were the same words only with small letters and I was like

oh.

(I think it can be read as having a disparaging tone on occasion, but honestly they are just words. They can be big or little or capitalised or non and they're still words. Tone is tricky on the internet and it's best to focus on content over anything else.) :)

 

[Tarvos]

The fact that you think this comes down to arrogance is utterly baffling. In the end, you're a white cis hetero dude (etc. etc. etc.) who thinks he gets to tell people who are oppressed what is right and wrong in regards to their oppression, and regardless of the times where you can be decent, I grow really tired of the increasing times where you are not.

In the end, that doesn't matter. The fact that you're a minority doesn't mean you get automatic jurisdiction over what is right. Therefore, it's my full right to disagree (or probably even agree for 99%; you may not have been reading properly) and have my own views, which don't have to:

a) be equal to yours
b) use the same premises as yours
c) have to be expressed in precisely the same manner as yours

I sympathise with the fact that genderqueer people don't have it easy but the fact that you feel about the issue more strongly OR that you think that as being an afflicted person it gives you the right to "educate" or "convince" other people of your plight is a plain false notion. There's enough space on this planet for the both of us to think about the whole thing and come to the simple conclusion we disagree on something. If that's the case, and it probably is, then we move on.

The real problem is that you think other people need to be "educated" about genderqueerness. The thing is, the fact that I'm a white cis hetero does not preclude me from knowing or having an opinion on anything or even that opinion being right and valid. My opinion is valid only, and specifically only, because the arguments used to frame it were coherent. Minority politics don't play a role in that. Someone can be a bitch and a jerk and a full-on racist and still frame a coherent argument on whatever subject. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

So the question really is: if you thought you wanted to educate, and I didn't listen, perhaps there was something wrong with your argument? I'm sure you've been polite enough to explain it more than once, so I honestly doubt that that's the core of the matter? And if you don't think there is, and you honestly genuinely think you're right, could you please have the decency to let me make up my own mind and think about the whole thing without having some preconceived notion of what I am supposed to think according to you, because that, indeed, is arrogance. We're all grown up people here and we can all shoulder the burdens of intellectual debate.

I read (or try to) read every post on the topic. It could be we simply think differently. Accept it, be a big girl/guy/person/spongecake and move on.

It's not a big deal. Really. If you re-read I probably even agree with 99% of what you say.

 

[shy ♡]

In the end, that doesn't matter. The fact that you're a minority doesn't mean you get automatic jurisdiction over what is right. Therefore, it's my full right to disagree (or probably even agree for 99%; you may not have been reading properly) and have my own views, which don't have to:

a) be equal to yours
b) use the same premises as yours
c) have to be expressed in precisely the same manner as yours

No. If you're a minority you get full jurisdiction on what is right/wrong on that subject. I, as a white person, cannot tell a black person, for example, that what they're doing is anti-black. I hope I don't have to explain just how fucked up that would be.

I sympathise with the fact that genderqueer people don't have it easy but the fact that you feel about the issue more strongly OR that you think that as being an afflicted person it gives you the right to "educate" or "convince" other people of your plight is a plain false notion. There's enough space on this planet for the both of us to think about the whole thing and come to the simple conclusion we disagree on something. If that's the case, and it probably is, then we move on.

The real problem is that you think other people need to be "educated" about genderqueerness.

9_9??? I don't know where you got this issue into your head?? I'm not even genderqueer and I wasn't talking about that issue. I didn't mention that at all. It's entirely in your head man. I mean, I didn't think you had a problem with gq people but if you do, well, ... good to know.

People do need to be educated though. If you honestly think people don't need to be educated - do you think they a) already are aware, or that it just doesn't matter?? I mean, what?

The thing is, the fact that I'm a white cis hetero does not preclude me from knowing or having an opinion on anything or even that opinion being right and valid. My opinion is valid only, and specifically only, because the arguments used to frame it were coherent. Minority politics don't play a role in that. Someone can be a bitch and a jerk and a full-on racist and still frame a coherent argument on whatever subject. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Uhmm no. Your opinion can be perfectly valid. But it's not valid only by your argument. Minority politics are always relevant and you only think otherwise because they are never relevant to you.

So the question really is: if you thought you wanted to educate, and I didn't listen, perhaps there was something wrong with your argument? I'm sure you've been polite enough to explain it more than once, so I honestly doubt that that's the core of the matter? And if you don't think there is, and you honestly genuinely think I'm right, could you please have the decency to let me make up my own mind and think about the whole thing without having some preconceived notion of what I am supposed to think according to you, because that, indeed, is arrogance. We're all grown up people here and we can all shoulder the burdens of intellectual debate.

I read (or try to) read every post on the topic. It could be we simply think differently. Accept it, be a big girl/guy/person/spongecake and move on.

It's not a big deal. Really. If you re-read I probably even agree with 99% of what you say.

You're assuming that if an argument is solid it will convince the other person and there are no other factors involved. For example, you have no need to care what I or anyone else says, and are simply more comfortable with your current opinion. This way you do not have to make a change in your moral outlook on life, which would require an effort on your part, and you don't want to make that effort because after all, you're not the one being hurt by these things. Most humans care to the extent that their laziness allows them: meaning, if it doesn't affect them, they don't care at all. Since most things don't affect you, you have no reason to listen when people tell you that it affects them and that you're wrong.

 

[Tarvos]

No. If you're a minority you get full jurisdiction on what is right/wrong on that subject. I, as a white person, cannot tell a black person, for example, that what they're doing is anti-black. I hope I don't have to explain just how fucked up that would be.

Elitist stance. Knowledge or correctness is NOT limited to the afflicted but to everyone else as well. As a white person we should be able to tell an anti-black person that they're anti-black. Because if it's anti-black, it's worth mentioning. Our argument is correct THUS we're always justified in pointing out social injustice and racism, and whether we are white or black or a cockatoo isn't relevant to that in the slightest.

Uhmm no. Your opinion can be perfectly valid. But it's not valid only by your argument. Minority politics are always relevant and you only think otherwise because they are never relevant to you.

They certainly are, I'm sure I'm part of a bunch of minorities, like minority atheist, minority university student, minority whatever. The fact I'm not a minority genderqueer doesn't mean I don't think genderqueer issues are important (and if you had any clue about my political stance you would KNOW I support all the LGBT measures here that everyone else does). You'd also know I agree with a whole lot of the other popular opinions here. Just not to the extent that I feel we should VICTIMIZE ourselves for being a minority.

Atheists suffer oppression and ridicule every day. I suffer it less because I happen to live in a country that has moderately enlightened people govern the subject, but I am aware many people live in areas that don't. But that does not mean I am the victim of their oppression. I don't care about these things because that's precisely how you defy the stupidity of bullying, being oppressed, being told you're worth less for reasons xyz. I have been in the minority often enough to know how unpleasant these things are, even if I am hetero or cis or genderqueer. But I don't play the victim and pretend that I should know it all better because I'm the victim of atheist oppression! That would be silly.

You're assuming that if an argument is solid it will convince the other person and there are no other factors involved. For example, you have no need to care what I or anyone else says, and are simply more comfortable with your current opinion. This way you do not have to make a change in your moral outlook on life, which would require an effort on your part, and you don't want to make that effort because after all, you're not the one being hurt by these things. Most humans care to the extent that their laziness allows them: meaning, if it doesn't affect them, they don't care at all. Since most things don't affect you, you have no reason to listen when people tell you that it affects them and that you're wrong.

No, I do care, but I don't show this by victimising and saying "look how poor I am, look how hurt I feel by you, the big cis close-minded meanie who is denying me my rights to be who I am!". This is not what that discussion is about. I have every reason to listen when people say they are affected by issues, and if you'd know me any better or some of the people I'd talked to on this issue you'd find out I bloody give a shit!

But my attitude towards solving the issue is very different from yours in that by denying that I'm a victim and projecting confidence in my opinion, I radiate a wholly different kind of vibe towards people. And yes, you think that's condescending and arrogant because "you don't know what we go through" or "you are not suffering from xyz so how can you know it's good or bad". And I'm saying that minority politics are always a part of everyone's lives and everyone is and has been and suffers minority oppression in some way or another. And you don't deal with it by feeling shitty about you being the minority.

Instead, you tell people they're being a dick when they're being a dick. Instead you tell people they're racist when they're being racist. Instead, you bring the roof down when someone's bullying someone of a certain minority. And you do this, across every single majority-minority boundary, to show that we're all made of the same cloth and we're all composed of the same flesh, bones and DNA and that we all goddamn populate the earth together. And that counts, always, and it counts for more than any minority oppression suffering there has ever been.

You don't get to retreat into your own world and blame the logic of the big bad everybody else who isn't part of your club that you formed because you didn't fit in everybody else's club where your rules count and you are always right and you have by fiat declared that it must be so.

That's what Jolty correctly points out as condescending and elitist and he's entirely right to do it (notice that I got the gender correct).

You get to justify your saying that you're being hurt by certain people's behaviour, but you don't always get to state that your hurting is realistic or rational in a larger context. By continuing to play the victim, you will always be the victim of your oppressor.

 

[shy ♡]

That's what Jolty correctly points out as condescending and elitist and he's entirely right to do it (notice that I got the gender correct).

 

[Datura]

Honest question for Pathos: If GSM folks are the only people who should be speaking to GSM issues, why are you dismissing Jolty's opinion?

 

[shy ♡]

Honest question for Pathos: If GSM folks are the only people who should be speaking to GSM issues, why are you dismissing Jolty's opinion?

Disagreement within a faction is bound to happen. I happen to think Jolty is a mean person and his opinions are harmful and based simply on cruelty and intolerance. He may have just as much say as I do on the subject, but that doesn't mean he's right.

Just like someone who is not of a gender or sexual minority can be completely correct in their opinion, even with lack of actual experience.

 

[Butterfree]

...I can't shake the feeling the two of you aren't quite on the same page here. Pathos is right that nobody has the right to pass ultimate judgement on what is or isn't oppressive towards a minority they don't belong to, but Tarvos is defending the view that anyone can criticize the way people respond to oppression even if they're not the ones being oppressed in this particular case, which isn't the same issue.

 

[Tarvos]

Honestly, this is the same argument a professor of French literature uses to dismiss an argument when he says that to be able to discuss literature you must first know all the books of French literature's grand canon (decided by the professors arbitrarily) by heart and be able recite them when you're being woken up at 5 AM after your wife has left you and your house has burned down to the ground.

I don't need to know all the fashions of Milan and Paris to know that the Emperor is nude if he's wearing no clothes!

It's just such a silly argument.

 

[ultraviolet]

all the arrogance i see around here is from all the genderqueer people because they think they're all ~*enlightened*~ and whatnot and think they're experts on pretty much anything. a lot of them also sound REALLY condescending most of the time.

oh and the whole thing about how if you're not oppressed in whatever way that is relevant to the topic, you're wrong. :)
tcod is like a mini tumblr sometimes i swear.

uh yeah, because you're never condescending at all right

fact is a great big hunk of your posts are more or less looking down on other people and making fun of them so um you're not a great deal better!

 

[Music Dragon]

Yes! Yes! Devolve! Fight amongst yourselves! It makes me stronger!

 

[Tailsy]

MD is the Shadow... the TRUE SELF...

 

[Datura]

Yes! Yes! Devolve! Fight amongst yourselves! It makes me stronger!

I honestly think this is the first post in the history of TCoD Forums that has caused me to spit out my drink all over my laptop. Well played.

 

[Phantom]

MD comes to save the day.

 

[Ether's Bane]

It's official: we need a Post Hall of Fame.

 

[Spoon]

I honestly can't think of anyone I don't like here. You're all pretty spiffy in my book. :D

Also, #tcod's a lot nicer than my first impression thought it'd be; apologies for that. And many kudos to so many members who've really improved with their age; Poly always sticks out in mind (probably because we joined around the same time) but I know there's tons more. Oh and Kinova's pretty awesome and I should talk more with her. Let's see; Dannichu and Hiikaru are amazingly upbeat. The mods are generally cool beans and seem to have endless resources of amusing gifs and images. The old OS group will always be fantastic. Yeah, and there's a lot more people who need to be mentioned, but I'm inexcusably lazy right now.

 

[Harlequin]

this thread was really nice at first!!!

and then it wasn't any more :(

WHY ARE YOU FIGHTING, GUYS? ;;

anyway <3 tailsy, viki is p cool... kinova is good fun! folks at #tcod are generally good people too!

also kusari is p cool too, though we haven't spoken in ages because I disappeared from the internet for like, weeks basically (HI COME BACK I HAVE A COOL NEW MAP AND WORLD TO SHOW YOU!!!!)