Feminism/Rape Culture

[kyeugh]

I perceive this as perhaps one of the most common factors among the active members of this forum. A good number of us are feminists.

So, I made this thread to discuss it, and probably the biggest problem feminism faces— rape culture. For those who don't know, rape culture is essentially the tolerance, acceptance, and even condolence of rape in a society.

Is this beginning to happen on unnecessary levels in the world? Discuss.

 

[Vipera Magnifica]

Is this beginning to happen on unnecessary levels in the world? Discuss.

If by beginning you mean having existed for thousands of years, then yes.

 

[sovram]

I don't feel like it is getting worse, just not getting any better...

 

[kyeugh]

If by beginning you mean having existed for thousands of years, then yes.

Of course it's existed for quite a bit, but it seems to be worsening. I mean, there are far too many rape apologetics out there for comfort. People actually make jokes about this. It's becoming kind of a fact of life, it's hardly even an issue to people any more. I don't get it.

 

[surskitty]

I don't think it's getting noticeably worse than it already was; it already was pretty bad. It just now gets more obvious discussion rather than general acceptance that that's the way things are.

 

[Flora]

I don't think it's worsening; I think that because of the prevalence of social media (and I suppose the internet in general), it's becoming a bit more noticeable.

I think before the internet, the only real circumstances in which rape (culture) was discussed is if it happened to you or someone you know (or rape jokes, but that's another area entirely), or maybe in a newspaper. Now these stories can be more easily publicized/addressed/whatever, and now those who believe that it's "justified" or "men can't help it*" or whatever have access to stories that they can attach their beliefs to.

(* on a vaguely related note, I just don't understand guys who say "men can't help themselves!" because that's effectively saying "when men are faced with an attractive woman** their capacity to think vanishes" and that's a terrible way to talk about your gender.)

(** obviously girls can rape and guys can get raped but the majority of situations with comments like that are male rapist/female victim, so the argument I posed related to that)

 

[hopeandjoy]

Honestly, it's getting better because of recognition.

By which I don't mean the problem is gone but that it's actually being addressed. It's a problem that's as old as humanity, but people are finally starting to talk about it and fight it.

 

[I liek Squirtles]

As hopeandjoy said, the problem is getting better. When Robin Thicke released Blurred Lines, there was a huge public outcry over the song because it was just one big song about rape that portrayed that as okay.

Maybe it's because the world is more peaceful now than it was 100 years ago, but people are tackling issues that before were barely recognized.

 

[Superbird]

The feminism movement in the U.S. began to get public recognition, and really actually started, at about the same time as the abolitionist movement, in the first half of the ninteenth century.

I am not, nor will I ever consider myself, a feminist or a feminist ally. Mainly this is because I have a problem with the term 'feminist' and all of its possible implications. I don't care at all about giving more power to women, which is what the term represents for me -- rather, what I'd like is for both sexes to just be equal in all possible cases, including but not limited to income. In other words, I have a problem not with any of the principles of feminism, but with the terminology, which I've heard varying definitions of, and which strikes me as something that really should be a different term with a more concrete meaning.

In regards to rape, we're taught about it (and it's hammered into our heads to never be private about it if you're a victim, always get help and tell someone) and educated against it in the [mandatory for graduation] healthful living class, so there's that. As to whether the problem is getting fixed, I've not kept up with history and current events related to this issue, so I don't really want to say anything.

 

[hopeandjoy]

Wow, it's almost like you have no idea that feminism is equality for both sexes. It focus on giving women more power because women have had little to no power for most of human existence in all cultures.

 

[kyeugh]

Yeah, hopeandjoy is spot on. Feminism isn't a band of man-haters who want women to rise up and become the ruling force of the world. It's more like a bunch of people who want women to be recognised as actual human beings, instead of second-class people who were born to cook and clean. I really, really don't even get why it's an issue at all. Opposing it just seems unethical, by normal terms. That's my opinion, anyway, not to offend anyone who disagrees.

So rape culture isn't actually a growing issue, then? The Blurred Lines thing is a good point, although I'd like to point out that despite the fact it got a lot of bad reviews, the song was still a hit and enough people bought it that it still consistently played on the radio. In any case, there's literally no excuse for it, and the fact that rape apologetics exist is kind of frightening. It's bad enough that rape even happens, but then it goes unpunished and people are covering these nasty criminal's backs after what they did, which is not okay under any circumstances. It seems like this problem should be fixed at a much quicker pace than it currently is. :c

 

[I liek Squirtles]

It was a hit because most people didn't understand what the hell Thicke was actually singing about. I've never heard the song, and as far as I know it wasn't a hit here, but it's still so freaking appalling what he's singing about.

Problems don't go away immediately. Considering it's people in the age range of teens to people in their twenties that's showing increased intolerance to things that are bad, society won't take them seriously until they become society itself, leading to much bigger tolerance. Right now, for feminism and LGBT rights and stuff like that, it's the equivalent of what the 60's was for the civil rights movement. It won't go away in the coming years, but it'll be much better than it is now. Did that make any sense?

 

[hopeandjoy]

So rape culture isn't actually a growing issue, then? The Blurred Lines thing is a good point, although I'd like to point out that despite the fact it got a lot of bad reviews, the song was still a hit and enough people bought it that it still consistently played on the radio. In any case, there's literally no excuse for it, and the fact that rape apologetics exist is kind of frightening. It's bad enough that rape even happens, but then it goes unpunished and people are covering these nasty criminal's backs after what they did, which is not okay under any circumstances. It seems like this problem should be fixed at a much quicker pace than it currently is. :c

Yeah, Blurred Lines happened. The point is that people got upset about it. Sure, some feminists would try to raise awareness about the occasional song, but they rarely got anywhere. For once, there was a general outcry on the internet. Did it do much? No. That song was still everywhere during the summer. But people noticed and people cared. That's step one.

Rape culture will not go away quickly. It's a very old concept in human civilization and as such laws and societal norms are directly tied into it. Laws can be changed quickly, but changing societal norms can take anywhere from one generation to ten. It's all about how many people change their thinking and then teach their changed thinking to their children.

Part of the resistance to modern third-wave feminism comes from some of the mistakes that the second-wave movement made. Because the second-wave focused so strongly on working women and the radicalization of the movement over time (i.e. marriage is slavery), many women who chose to be and wanted to be homemakers felt alienated even if they would've agreed with feminists.

Now, there is no doubt that second-wave feminism allowed women to work as they do today with reduced sexual harassment, better (though still not equal) wages, and the ability to reach leadership positions. These are fights that needed to be fought then and still do now. There's also no doubt that many women were forced by various circumstances to stay at home. But in the process, homemaking and child raising became vilified and so did the women who chose to do so.

This includes my mother who chose to stay at home and felt like she didn't belong in the movement even in the 90s. Of course, my mother called herself a feminist anyway, but that's the way it is.

The other reason is the weakening of power of the male majority. As minorities gain power, the majority group often lashes out.

Personally, I feel that both homemaking and having a career are perfectly fine and choosing one or the other doesn't make a women a bad feminist or a bad mother. What's important is economic freedom. A woman should have equal opportunity in a career as a man. And if a person, woman or man, wants to stay at home with children, they have every right to and its just as important as if they had chosen to have a career.

A person has a right to chose their own path and, as long as it's not an illegal one, have at it.

 

[RespectTheBlade]

Yeah, hopeandjoy is spot on. Feminism isn't a band of man-haters who want women to rise up and become the ruling force of the world. It's more like a bunch of people who want women to be recognised as actual human beings, instead of second-class people who were born to cook and clean. I really, really don't even get why it's an issue at all. Opposing it just seems unethical, by normal terms. That's my opinion, anyway, not to offend anyone who disagrees.

In Superbird's defense, there are a fair amount of "feminists" (or at least a few, from what I've seen on tumblr) who believe feminism is a sort of "men are pigs" movement and act as such. Some of the first experiences I had with feminism were painting the whole movement in that sort of light, which is something I didn't like at all. Qval is right, though- feminism is a movement towards equality for all genders. Simply because the scale is tipped one way doesn't mean people have to be hated or attacked for it to be balanced.

Now, as for where I stand on the whole issue, I guess I would consider myself a feminist, based on my beliefs. I would never condone or defend rape under any circumstances, as no one should. I'm not an activist by nature, though, so hopefully I can gather the courage to change that at some point.

Anyway, enough with my beliefs. As has been said before, rape has been around for a very long time. (a quick google search showed that it first became illegal in 1275 in england, though of course it had been happening before that.) So, attempting to end rape forever is something that simply cannot be done in a few weeks or months. I believe rape culture is improving, albeit at a very slow pace. More and more people are realizing that rape is something you should never do under any circumstances, and also that consent is a very important thing, and that not following it is rape. Which brings me to blurred lines. The only reason blurred lines ever became a chart topper was because of how catchy the song was. It had a jazzy beat and a sort of addictive rhythmic repetition that's normally very catchy and easy to sing along to. This sort of structure is what makes popular songs popular. And blurred lines is, unfortunately, a very catchy song. Enough people liked the song and either ignored or even liked the lyrics to give it a top position for a while.

I want to stress, though, that it doesn't make the song ok. Fame is not a measure of moral acceptance. Just look at Justin Beiber, whose name is easily one of the most recognizable ones of the past few years, but who has a horrible moral compass and is currently in prison. The whole message that the song sends is deplorable. But the song was a good thing, in the manner that hopeandjoy described. There was an internet outrage, and that raised public awareness to how truly wrong the whole idea of blurred lines of consent really is. As cliche as it sounds, knowing is half the battle. And it probably sent a message to the music industry that if songs like this become big in the future, more people will get mad than those that did with blurred lines.

Other than that whole fiasco, I haven't observed much change, but there seems to be a growing general acceptance that rape is a bad thing. There are, and may always be, people who don't get that, (I can name a few people in my school who don't) but there have been some big steps recently towards identifying rape as a crime, and nothing less, to the entire populace.

oh god the first thing I post about in months is about something controversial please don't kill me

in retrospect the above is probably why I'm not more of an activist

 

[Flora]

In Superbird's defense, there are a fair amount of "feminists" (or at least a few, from what I've seen on tumblr) who believe feminism is a sort of "men are pigs" movement and act as such. Some of the first experiences I had with feminism were painting the whole movement in that sort of light, which is something I didn't like at all.

There are, admittedly, a few feminists who think like this. That being said, I think the whole "feminism=men suck" idea was started/perpetuated by guys who saw the word and thought "feminism=female=not-male=against men in general."

Plus, with studies showing that men think that a group with ~30% women in it is female-dominated, it's entirely possible that there are guys out there who think "but women ARE equal! therefore feminism just means women rule the world."

...this is only tangentially related oops

(AND ON ANOTHER TANGENTIAL BUT ALSO AMUSING NOTE i went to leave the cafeteria to prep for an audition and RIGHT AS I PLANNED TO LEAVE blurred lines started playing, as if the universe itself was telling me "you have been here too long and you have an audition in an hour please leave")

 

[Eta Carinae]

When it comes to rape culture, I usually think it's pretty straightforward except for one small thing: rape jokes. It's an issue that's nagged me for some time now.

I agree 100% that those who make rape jokes are pretty rude people, but I'm on the fence when it comes to the people who laugh along with it. On one hand, I feel like those people are just as worse as the joke teller for laughing along, they're condoning rape in a way. On the other hand, I've met very few people who can control their humor and what they laugh at. If someone hears a rape joke that is funny not just for content but for delivery, timing, etc. (the factors that make comedians such great joke tellers) and they laugh, are they still "bad people" in that sense? I feel like someone can laugh at a rape joke but still feel rape is wrong.

What are everybody's opinions on this?

 

[Ether's Bane]

When it comes to rape culture, I usually think it's pretty straightforward except for one small thing: rape jokes. It's an issue that's nagged me for some time now.

I agree 100% that those who make rape jokes are pretty rude people, but I'm on the fence when it comes to the people who laugh along with it. On one hand, I feel like those people are just as worse as the joke teller for laughing along, they're condoning rape in a way. On the other hand, I've met very few people who can control their humor and what they laugh at. If someone hears a rape joke that is funny not just for content but for delivery, timing, etc. (the factors that make comedians such great joke tellers) and they laugh, are they still "bad people" in that sense? I feel like someone can laugh at a rape joke but still feel rape is wrong.

What are everybody's opinions on this?

I actually don't have a problem with rape jokes, with one caveat: the object of the mockery must be the rapist, not the raped. If the object of the mockery is the raped, then that's obviously wrong.

 

[kyeugh]

Yeah, no. Rape jokes aren't okay, period. It doesn't really matter if it was delivered at the perfect time, or with expert delivery or whatever it is; you can't really justify something like that, or justify supporting it. What does laughing at a joke do? It tells the person who told it, "Hey, they liked that. I'll start telling jokes like that more." So no matter what the circumstances, it's really of my opinion that it's not okay to laugh at a rape joke. It isn't as if they're funny, anyway.

 

[Ether's Bane]

I realize that my previous post may be misunderstood, so I'll make it clearer.

Rape jokes that mock the raped =/= okay.
Rape jokes that mock the rapist = okay.

 

[kyeugh]

I realize that my previous post may be misunderstood, so I'll make it clearer.

Rape jokes that mock the raped =/= okay.
Rape jokes that mock the rapist = okay.

It wasn't misunderstood. I just don't like rape jokes altogether, no matter who it's about; rape is not something you joke about, to me.