Gender

[Crazy Linoone]

Okay, I'm kind of still confused about this whole gender identity thing. I mean, I understand why people are transsexual* (if you look at your bits and feel an urge to yank it out and it makes you depressed because you hate it, etc etc), but since I view gender as a total socially-induced thing, I don't really understand the difference between transgender people and the people who are just breaking social norms to do whatever they want. So, a question:

Assuming that all gender conceptions don't exist and all male and female and whatever people are treated equally (dresses aren't a female-only thing, males can have long hair tied up in pretty ribbons, females are viewed as just as competent in engineering and computer science, both males and females have equal responsibility in asking their significant other to the prom, etc.), would transgender people still exist?

*By transsexual, I mean people who would like to change their bits, hormones, etc. They don't necessarily need to have changed their bits or are planning to change their bits (maybe they can't afford it or they don't think the operation is good enough). By transgender, I mean people who are guys but have female bits and girls who have male bits who have no plan to change them/would not change them if they can do so. Just a clarification so we don't end up arguing over words.

 

[Saith]

Seriously. Whipping Girl. Totally goes over what you just asked.

but since I view gender as a total socially-induced thing

This is where I disagree. For me, gender is both a social concept and biological. Or rather, certain aspects of you are tied to your assigned-sex.
A trans-gendered individual has problems relating to their sex just as much as their assigned gender.

There are many reports of certain parts of your personality changing as you transition on HRT. Things like trans-dudes getting more restrained and distant or trans-chicks suddenly feeling their emotions in an incredibly powerful way.
Gender as a social construct relates to things like pretty dresses or whatever the fuck. That's stereotyping and sort of transphobic. I don't give a shit about dresses or jewelry. Am I not a 'real' tranny, then? I like rugby and video games. That doesn't mean shit.

Put it this way: Nobody transitions so they can wear frilly lingerie. That's just a bonus.

 

[shy ♡]

There are many reports of certain parts of your personality changing as you transition on HRT. Things like trans-dudes getting more restrained and distant or trans-chicks suddenly feeling their emotions in an incredibly powerful way.
Gender as a social construct relates to things like pretty dresses or whatever the fuck. That's stereotyping and sort of transphobic. I don't give a shit about dresses or jewelry. Am I not a 'real' tranny, then? I like rugby and video games. That doesn't mean shit.

While I agree that gender identity is not a purely social issue, I disagree with the evidence you've given. To me, changes experienced based on HRT appear to be a social construct, honestly. People think 'men are this'; they go on t, so they feel they become more like that (possibly because they want to pass better, who knows). It's honestly ridiculous because testosterone does not effect you in that way, and it's also rather sexist. Men are not more withdrawn, closed off, or whatever; women do not feel their emotions any stronger. That is a societal construct.

HRT is just puberty. Puberty does not effect your personality aside from, well, perhaps in the short-term.

 

[Ruby]

Puberty does not affect your personality?!

 

[Saith]

While I agree that gender identity is not a purely social issue, I disagree with the evidence you've given. To me, changes experienced based on HRT appear to be a social construct, honestly. People think 'men are this'; they go on t, so they feel they become more like that (possibly because they want to pass better, who knows). It's honestly ridiculous because testosterone does not effect you in that way, and it's also rather sexist. Men are not more withdrawn, closed off, or whatever; women do not feel their emotions any stronger. That is a societal construct.

HRT is just puberty. Puberty does not effect your personality aside from, well, perhaps in the short-term.

So... You're saying that HRT is a placebo?
Look, maybe I'm one of the 'lucky' ones, but I don't care about how people see me. I care about how - who - I am. The physical changes of HRT are nothing, in my opinion, compared to the mental and emotional ones.
Hormones change your mental state because yes. It is a second puberty. And puberty changes you. All of you.

 

[Jolty]

Assuming that all gender conceptions don't exist and all male and female and whatever people are treated equally (dresses aren't a female-only thing, males can have long hair tied up in pretty ribbons, females are viewed as just as competent in engineering and computer science, both males and females have equal responsibility in asking their significant other to the prom, etc.), would transgender people still exist?

*By transsexual, I mean people who would like to change their bits, hormones, etc. They don't necessarily need to have changed their bits or are planning to change their bits (maybe they can't afford it or they don't think the operation is good enough). By transgender, I mean people who are guys but have female bits and girls who have male bits who have no plan to change them/would not change them if they can do so. Just a clarification so we don't end up arguing over words.

first off, the asking to prom thing, that's a really dumb thing to include with that other stuff. but that's not the point here...
If gender as we know it did not exist and everyone was free to do whatever they wanted without anyone giving a sod, I myself would still transition because I would still be stuck with boobs and a voice that I despise to death and looking like a little kid. And I'd still hate all of it.
So I guess people who transition largely due to body dysphoria would still do so, whereas people who don't intend to get hormone treatment/SRS/etc... if there's no such thing as gender, then what would be the point??

To me, changes experienced based on HRT appear to be a social construct, honestly. People think 'men are this'; they go on t, so they feel they become more like that (possibly because they want to pass better, who knows). It's honestly ridiculous because testosterone does not affect you in that way, and it's also rather sexist. Men are not more withdrawn, closed off, or whatever; women do not feel their emotions any stronger. That is a societal construct.

HRT is just puberty. Puberty does not affect your personality aside from, well, perhaps in the short-term.

it does affect your personality a bit though
because that's what puberty /does/
I agree that the stuff about women being emotional and men not is a societal construct but there must be a reason beyond "society said so" that this is a thing? so, biologically, males are generally slightly less emotional than females? I dunno I'm just speculating here but it does make some kind of sense I mean female hormones /do/ go batshit insane once a month
Like with "regular" puberty though, the changes on HRT vary from person to person...

 

[opaltiger]

Female hormones cycle monthly. Male hormones cycle daily. If anything, men should be the emotional ones.

 

[1. Luftballon]

can male hormones actually be said to cycle?

 

[shy ♡]

Puberty does not affect your personality?!

I'm assuming you're sarcastic. :[

So... You're saying that HRT is a placebo?
Look, maybe I'm one of the 'lucky' ones, but I don't care about how people see me. I care about how - who - I am. The physical changes of HRT are nothing, in my opinion, compared to the mental and emotional ones.
Hormones change your mental state because yes. It is a second puberty. And puberty changes you. All of you.

Am I really alone in not having been affected by puberty? Well, me and everyone I know...? I do recall saying except for short-term changes, i.e. teens are known for, well, being teens or whatever, although I don't know anyone who was like that as a teen, so I do consider that to be a bit of a myth as well. But, whatever; I think puberty just affects you physically, and mental changes are ... experience and reaction to society.

But you can think what you want, since naturally I can't force my opinions on you. I just don't understand why, if it's the emotions or whatever you want, you can't feel that now.

it does affect your personality a bit though
because that's what puberty /does/
I agree that the stuff about women being emotional and men not is a societal construct but there must be a reason beyond "society said so" that this is a thing? so, biologically, males are generally slightly less emotional than females? I dunno I'm just speculating here but it does make some kind of sense I mean female hormones /do/ go batshit insane once a month
Like with "regular" puberty though, the changes on HRT vary from person to person...

Uhmmm. Why does it have to be more than a societal construct? Like, do you have a reason for thinking that?

Personally my mood is never affected by that-time-of-the-month (obviously aside from dysphoria), same with my mother. I actually thought that was a myth too until like, recently, when I realized some people do have mood changes and whatnot from it. It still boggles my mind a bit, but, whatever. I mean, for me it's probably because I'm neuroatypical, I don't know. But the stereotype still bugs me because it's clearly not true.

 

[Jolty]

Uhmmm. Why does it have to be more than a societal construct? Like, do you have a reason for thinking that?

people must have reasons for thinking such things
they didn't just randomly decide it one day, it had to come from somewhere originally

Personally my mood is never affected by that-time-of-the-month (obviously aside from dysphoria), same with my mother. I actually thought that was a myth too until like, recently, when I realized some people do have mood changes and whatnot from it. It still boggles my mind a bit, but, whatever. I mean, for me it's probably because I'm neuroatypical, I don't know. But the stereotype still bugs me because it's clearly not true.

I am sorry, clearly you are everyone with a uterus!!!
the majority of people with periods /do/ have massive mood swings, and that is where the stereotype comes from
the thing about "GOD ALL WOMEN ARE SUCH BITCHES WHEN THEY'RE ON THEIR PERIOD we must keep well out of their way!!!!" is stupid, the thing about hormones going mad and making them prone to mood fluctuations is not.

 

[shy ♡]

I am sorry, clearly you are everyone with a uterus!!!
the majority of people with periods /do/ have massive mood swings, and that is where the stereotype comes from
the thing about "GOD ALL WOMEN ARE SUCH BITCHES WHEN THEY'RE ON THEIR PERIOD we must keep well out of their way!!!!" is stupid, the thing about hormones going mad and making them prone to mood fluctuations is not.

... Uh, what. I don't recall claiming I'm the only one with a uterus so I'm unsure where that outburst came from. Just because it effects some people doesn't mean it justifies the stereotype, and since you seem to admit the stereotype is wrong I'm... confused about your point.

 

[octobr]

Okay, I'm kind of still confused about this whole gender identity thing. I mean, I understand why people are transsexual* (if you look at your bits and feel an urge to yank it out and it makes you depressed because you hate it, etc etc), but since I view gender as a total socially-induced thing, I don't really understand the difference between transgender people and the people who are just breaking social norms to do whatever they want. So, a question:

Assuming that all gender conceptions don't exist and all male and female and whatever people are treated equally (dresses aren't a female-only thing, males can have long hair tied up in pretty ribbons, females are viewed as just as competent in engineering and computer science, both males and females have equal responsibility in asking their significant other to the prom, etc.), would transgender people still exist?

ahahaha... aha... guys I made a big post about this sorta thing it's back there with my name on it I just thought you ought to know...

is it too long or something
um

Look, maybe I'm one of the 'lucky' ones, but I don't care about how people see me. I care about how - who - I am. The physical changes of HRT are nothing, in my opinion, compared to the mental and emotional ones.
Hormones change your mental state because yes. It is a second puberty. And puberty changes you. All of you.

see we would all probably love to be like 'i don't care what other people see me as' but it's really hard and can't be expected out of everyone! i know for sure i care how other people see me. it's pretty important, personally. and that's silly sure because it's supposed to be my view of me blah blah blah but that's hard!

hormone replacement doesn't change your personality, per se. it may mess with your emotions and stuff, you'll start reacting differently to situations and later look back on it and go 'what the ????', but that's not your personality, is it, it's more like short-term things which aren't really your personality at all.

 

[Crazy Linoone]

first off, the asking to prom thing, that's a really dumb thing to include with that other stuff.

But that's the reason I put it there :( Because all of those things are dumb. Guys should be allowed to wear pretty ribbons in their hair and girl engineers should be treated to be as competent as guy engineers, but society says "no" and gets all bitchy when it sees a guy wearing a dress and quickly assumes that the guy is gay*/trans/has problems.

*Even though trans =/= gay, a lot of people seem to think that way! It makes me really sad.

it does affect your personality a bit though
because that's what puberty /does/
I agree that the stuff about women being emotional and men not is a societal construct but there must be a reason beyond "society said so" that this is a thing? so, biologically, males are generally slightly less emotional than females? I dunno I'm just speculating here but it does make some kind of sense I mean female hormones /do/ go batshit insane once a month
Like with "regular" puberty though, the changes on HRT vary from person to person...

I think the "women being emotional" thing probably came from the fact that women hormones go batshit insane once a month, and it's easier to notice when somebody explodes once a month rather than slowly letting out steam over the course of a long time? I don't think males are any less emotional than females, if you average the emotions out.

ahahaha... aha... guys I made a big post about this sorta thing it's back there with my name on it I just thought you ought to know...

is it too long or something
um

Uh, what ... said. I mean, yes I read it, but I still don't really understand... >.<

Most transgender people I know cannot explain it; they say that it is not about gender roles or societal constructs but just about something in them that they just know. It is pretty vague, but I take their word on it. It does not help me understand it since basically everyone says "just trust me on this," but I know it is not your responsibility to help me understand.

This is where I disagree. For me, gender is both a social concept and biological. Or rather, certain aspects of you are tied to your assigned-sex.
A trans-gendered individual has problems relating to their sex just as much as their assigned gender.

So I guess people who transition largely due to body dysphoria would still do so, whereas people who don't intend to get hormone treatment/SRS/etc... if there's no such thing as gender, then what would be the point??

...I think I'm starting to understand now... Maybe. Hopefully. So, a clarifying question: Is gender a completely social construct? Or is it something more? Because I feel like there's both views going around and I don't think we can have a good discussion if our definitions of words are different.

 

[Cerberus87]

Your post basically said "I know that my gender identity is male, I really feel it," but that really does not help understand what "being male" (in the gender sense) is. Most transgender people I know cannot explain it; they say that it is not about gender roles or societal constructs but just about something in them that they just know. It is pretty vague, but I take their word on it. It does not help me understand it since basically everyone says "just trust me on this," but I know it is not your responsibility to help me understand.

Basically it would mean that this something is in the consciousness, or in the soul if we were to adopt such a concept. Body tells otherwise, genoma tells otherwise, but you simply feel that mind and body mismatch.

I don't know if you guys are aware of it, but many transgender people are people who were born with some sort of genitalia anomaly and then the doctor goes there and "fixes" it by giving the baby either a penis or a vagina. In many cases however, when the person grows up, their mind is the opposite of the sex that was "chosen" for them, and they have to go through surgery again to correct their sex to what it should've been in the first place. I find those stories to be sad because the people don't have control over what is chosen for them at the beginning of their lives and they have to bear the consequences of the choices of others for long.

 

[Arylett Charnoa]

[DECADES LATER EDIT IF ANYONE FINDS THIS: There are some things I disagree with these days that I've said, but I am still sick of gender nonsense and do not wish to discuss it any further, ever, in any way. Frankly, I still find it exhausting, stressful, and confusing. All I wish for nowadays is to live in peace, without the fraught drama of my teenage years and current politics. If you try to message any current accounts about this, I will ignore you. Thank you.]

Just for the record: I agree with everything that Hawke/Phantom has said. I also find this entirely confusing and pointless.

You guys say that gender isn't that important to you, but clearly it is with all of the threads and arguments that have popped up about it when Butterfree changed the pronoun field. You know, it is a mystery, because I really haven't seen people anywhere else make as big of a deal as the people here about it.

Also, I think that alternative pronouns are utter nonsense and I refuse to use them. (I fully expect to get a lot of flack about this statement. But hey, before you get angry and mash the reply button, continue to read, please.) I don't understand why "they" is not an adequate pronoun for these sorts of things. First off, the thing that people do not seem to understand is that these pronouns do NOT fit into English. There is a certain way words are spelled in English, and "xir" definitely is not one of them. X's are not typically used in that way. "Sie" looks more like a word in Spanish or some other language. If alternative pronouns are made and expected to gain usage in mainstream, they really should look much more appealing than that. A lot of this is about how the word looks, and how it does not fit in.

Secondly, there are so many of these pronouns that using a pronoun for a person becomes a very confusing affair when it really shouldn't be that complicated. Thirdly, they sound really awkward in a sentence and like you're trying to force them in. And that's really what you ARE doing. Language is not something that is created on the spot; it is something that evolves slowly over time. It seems to me like overly politically correct and unnecessary and like when politicians try to force people to use "PC" terms. It usually doesn't work.

Further, if gender does not matter to most of you, then why does it matter what pronoun is used to refer to you? Why not "they"?

Clearly, this is some form of gender identity, just like the one that you propose is not important. If gender did not exist, then there would be no need to specify not being in the binary or to specify anything at all. However, even being... agender (man, I have NEVER heard of that phrase before. It feels strange to use) is being part of a gender spectrum. Now, I'm not referring to the roles that society force on people. I'm talking about gender as how people identify themselves, the strict by-the-book definition. Unless there's something I misunderstood. Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about because I'm just too cisgendered to understand.

Personally, I am sort of offended by the general attitude that gender should not exist and that gender identity is something that people should not do. I am a person who is very proud of being female and I think about it a lot. I look in the mirror sometimes, and I smile because I am a girl, and I really like it. Does that make me shallow? No. That seems to be the implication that a lot of people are making here, that it is stupid to care about that. I don't believe that at all. My gender is a very important part of my identity and I cannot imagine life as anything else. It makes me very upset when I am referred to as a male, because that is not what I am.

Yes, society does make bad things of gender and makes gender roles. But I don't think it's a societal concept at all. If it were, being transsexual would not exist. Because obviously there is some sort of concept of gender in the brain. Something that tells you "I am female" "I am male" "I am not either of those." Regardless of what society says. There is a difference between gender roles and gender. And even if society made nothing of gender, I still think it would exist. It's rather hard to say what defines it other than a feeling in somebody's brain, but that's pretty much it. The gender roles society creates are part padding, part ridiculous, and part based on things that are sometimes true about females and males on a very general scale.

So basically, a lot of what Cirrus said too. Just because you don't feel particularly hot about something, doesn't mean everybody else doesn't. Also, if it really doesn't matter than you, then why should it matter that it exists? Disregarding again the gender roles which can be hurtful.

Lastly, I do think that people are really overly touchy about this, which further proves my point that maybe gender is a little more important to them than they think, and need to relax by like a lot. Jumping on people (which has happened on these forums a lot. Just look at those aforementioned threads where Butterfree changed the pronouns? remember the one that was closed?) just because they might've said something in misunderstanding of all of this complicated mishmash is definitely not right. And you know what? This sort of attitude will put off people to listening to what you have to say. It certainly has put me off by a lot. And I'm really tired of it. Keep it simple to people who don't understand. Sex is not gender, they are different, some people feel male, some people feel female, a lot of people feel that and are both, and some people are not part of the binary. The end. I don't see why this needs to be so complicated.

That's just my two cents and I'm sticking with it. (Also, I believe that this does look like a debate.)

 

[Minish]

You guys say that gender isn't that important to you, but clearly it is with all of the threads and arguments that have popped up about it when Butterfree changed the pronoun field.

Um. Firstly, you can care a lot about something without it relating directly to you. Making a safe space is not necessarily about your personal needs, it is mainly about accommodating others' personal needs into your worldview and your attitude.

You know, it is a mystery, because I really haven't seen people anywhere else make as big of a deal as the people here about it.

That's because most places don't give a single fuck about being a safe space, and as a mod, as a member, I am quite comfortably proud of how much effort we go to here to be as inclusive as possible. That is never a bad thing.

Also, I think that alternative pronouns are utter nonsense and I refuse to use them.

You... wouldn't even use someone's preferred pronouns? Wow, that's... pretty horrible. There are other people in this thread who have expressed similar views, but at least they'd respect what someone else would prefer? And not going a single tiny bit out of your way in order to make someone else feel, probably, much more comfortable in conversation seems like a really spiteful thing to do. But whatever, I guess? Just don't be so surprised that you get 'flack' for such a dick move.

I don't understand why "they" is not an adequate pronoun for these sorts of things. First off, the thing that people do not seem to understand is that these pronouns do NOT fit into English. There is a certain way words are spelled in English, and "xir" definitely is not one of them. X's are not typically used in that way. "Sie" looks more like a word in Spanish or some other language.

That's... mainly because they weren't already words?? Most words probably didn't look English before they were English, that's a really bizarre point to take offence in.

'They' is not adequate for a lot of reasons. First of all, um, ambiguity?? I don't just mean wondering whether the singular or plural is meant, it usually takes only a few seconds of subconscious context-deducing for that. But when you refer to a singular person as 'they', generally it's because their gender is unknown. My gender is not unknown. Can you not understand how this could make someone uncomfortable?

I like having a singular gender-neutral pronoun. I seriously don't understand why it's such a lot of skin off your back? Why do you care? By being cisgender you already things have easy for you. You don't want to help others get into the same place? Pronouns are not a hard thing to get your head around. Making mistakes, fine, everyone does this and it's in good nature and nobody really minds. Even if you think it might be hard to get used to someone using different pronouns than they did before! But firmly just rejecting something so simple, such a tiny effort to help someone in a really huge way? Why?

If alternative pronouns are made and expected to gain usage in mainstream, they really should look much more appealing than that. A lot of this is about how the word looks, and how it does not fit in.

Erm... that's... an odd excuse, but okay. So if someone has an unusual looking name that doesn't ~fit~, would you refuse to use that? Sorry, your name doesn't look like it'd fit in English, I'll just call you Ben! You don't like the name Ben? WELL HAHA I'M USING IT ANYWAY because you feeling comfortable and not being triggered and having a fucking breakdown is much less of a deal than what I consider pleasant to look at/hear!

Secondly, there are so many of these pronouns that using a pronoun for a person becomes a very confusing affair when it really shouldn't be that complicated.

Fine, then people would probably make allowances if you screwed up a few times. Buuuut you could just use the same gender-neutral pronouns for people, maybe they wouldn't be so offended if you asked? The most common are sie/hir and e/eir/em, just use one set? Wow, one set of new morphemes to get your head around. Also? There are legitimate reasons why people like to use other ones. I don't like using sie/hir that much for my own personal use (obvs not if someone asked me because I'm not a jerk) because it feels too similar to female pronouns! Other people like ones they feel look or sound prettier, or feel closer to them, or they just feel right! So there are kind of reasons why there are lots of many.

I don't... really understand why it's so abhorrent for you. Having a lot of choice is nice for things like this, especially after a life of "sorry, but you have to use these pronouns and look this way and be called this and this just because we say so".

Thirdly, they sound really awkward in a sentence and like you're trying to force them in.

You're not used to them. Oh, and the best way to get used to something? Not refusing to do it.

Honestly, why is your reaction NO THIS IS TOO DIFFICULT rather than ahh I'm going to try a little harder! when this is, yes, you're right, a big deal? I just don't get it!

And that's really what you ARE doing. Language is not something that is created on the spot; it is something that evolves slowly over time.

Actually, no. Language does not always work like that, take it from someone who's actually studied linguistics a bit. Neologisms are words created there-and-then for a particular purpose, because there is need for it. That's it. It happens all the time, every day, and usually for great reason. You seem a little confused. Language change happens gradually over time. Semantic shifts, yay!! But new, progressive terminology, no.

It seems to me like overly politically correct and unnecessary and like when politicians try to force people to use "PC" terms. It usually doesn't work.

Okay, sorry, nobody really gives a fuck. I know everyone doesn't share my hatred/occasional trigger for the term PC, but seriously, do you think anyone cares about Daily Mail things like this? This is a broadly liberal, queer-friendly, mostly safe space forum and you're one of few who finds the pronoun field etc. unnecessary. Hmm, I wonder if there's a correlation between that and the fact that it barely concerns you.

However, even being... agender (man, I have NEVER heard of that phrase before. It feels strange to use)

I'm not going to blame you for not having heard of what is a pretty common, work-it-out-for-yourself kind of term, but why does it even feel strange to use...? 'a' is a pretty common prefix!

Personally, I am sort of offended by the general attitude that gender should not exist and that gender identity is something that people should not do. I am a person who is very proud of being female and I think about it a lot. I look in the mirror sometimes, and I smile because I am a girl, and I really like it. Does that make me shallow? No. That seems to be the implication that a lot of people are making here, that it is stupid to care about that.

No, no, no, no, no. Even people who feel that gender is purely a societal construct, I don't think, would try to argue that gender is not important. Gender is kind of one of the foundations of culture?? Why would anyone call you shallow??? When did anyone? I can barely argue against this because just... nobody thinks this?? There aren't even that many people in this thread who've stated that to them, personally, gender isn't an important feeling that they have! And most of them make allowances for people who do feel it's important to them!

It makes me very upset when I am referred to as a male, because that is not what I am.

?????? But it's okay when you refer to someone as something they feel uncomfortable with? What? Why?

Yes, society does make bad things of gender and makes gender roles. But I don't think it's a societal concept at all. If it were, being transsexual would not exist.

Lots of trans* people feel that gender is purely a societal construct, you'll find! (not all, of course!) Just because something is not an innate feeling (very few things are not at least something of a cultural product, so) does not speak much of it? It doesn't take away validity from things that are culturally produced. The whole point is that those things are important to us, have become important, have always been important for as long as anyone can remember. The family is a societal construct, education is a societal construct.

Lastly, I do think that people are really overly touchy about this, which further proves my point that maybe gender is a little more important to them than they think, and need to relax by like a lot.

I don't understand at all how you can talk about how important gender is, to you personally, and then move on to "god just ~lighten up~!!!!!!!" And again, making others comfortable is important. If I felt strongly cisgender, I am still fairly sure I would be very important in making people who weren't feel okay??

I'm not responding to any more of your post, this is already pretty disjointed. Sigh.

 

[opaltiger]

You guys say that gender isn't that important to you, but clearly it is with all of the threads and arguments that have popped up about it when Butterfree changed the pronoun field. You know, it is a mystery, because I really haven't seen people anywhere else make as big of a deal as the people here about it.

I am a bit confused. With the exception of one or two people like myself, everyone has been emphasising that they do find gender extremely important, in some cases in spite of the fact that they think generally it shouldn't be as important as it is.

Also, I think that alternative pronouns are utter nonsense and I refuse to use them.

Why? Is your indignation over the fact that these pronouns don't "fit into" the English language really more important than the comfort of the people you're talking to? This is like the rape joke argument. Yes, you can make rape jokes all you like, but is your right to do that really more important than the comfort of the people around you? I agree, some alternative pronouns sound a bit strange, and often I can't work out how they're supposed to be pronounced - but even then, you can still use them in writing! Is it that much of an effort? The pronoun field is there so you don't have to remember what pronouns to use for each person, it's right there on each of their posts!

Addendum: 'they' is not adequate because a) some people find it impersonal; b) it is already in general use as a singular person in the case where gender is not known, and this is a distinct usage from the case you are proposing; and c) there isn't just one other option besides "male" and "female"; there are lots! So clearly you need more than one set of alternate pronouns. I acknowledge the argument that this could easily get out of hand, which is why I think a set of truly neutral pronouns - that is, pronouns which say absolutely nothing about gender identity - would be useful, so that we would always have something to use in the case where we do not know someone's preferred pronoun.

It seems to me like overly politically correct and unnecessary and like when politicians try to force people to use "PC" terms. It usually doesn't work.

I hate the term 'politically correct'. There is nothing wrong with insisting that people don't use language which makes other people uncomfortable.

Personally, I am sort of offended by the general attitude that gender should not exist and that gender identity is something that people should not do. I am a person who is very proud of being female and I think about it a lot. I look in the mirror sometimes, and I smile because I am a girl, and I really like it. Does that make me shallow? No. That seems to be the implication that a lot of people are making here, that it is stupid to care about that. I don't believe that at all. My gender is a very important part of my identity and I cannot imagine life as anything else. It makes me very upset when I am referred to as a male, because that is not what I am.

This is not a general attitude; in fact, in this thread, only Butterfree and I have said anything remotely similar. And here's what we actually meant: if gender, as a concept, had never existed in the first place, the world would be a better place. Why? Because all the people who are struggling with their gender identity and who are discriminated against for not falling in the defined gender spectrum would not have to go through that. But of course that's impossible, since gender does exist; thus, the next best thing we can do is try to make the world better, so that people don't have to go through that any more. And you know what a good way to start doing that is? Respecting people's preferred pronouns.

I can't reply to the rest of your post, since it seems to insist that everyone is saying gender isn't important to them, which clearly isn't true. I said it wasn't important to me, yes; that doesn't mean I think it shouldn't be important to other people. I might prefer if it wasn't - I think it would be great, actually - but I realise that other people feel strongly about gender, and that's okay. I don't mind if you're proud of being female. That's great! It means you're comfortable with your gender, and that's a big advantage over a lot of other people here. On which point:

Lastly, I do think that people are really overly touchy about this, which further proves my point that maybe gender is a little more important to them than they think, and need to relax by like a lot. Jumping on people (which has happened on these forums a lot. Just look at those aforementioned threads where Butterfree changed the pronouns? remember the one that was closed?) just because they might've said something in misunderstanding of all of this complicated mishmash is definitely not right. And you know what? This sort of attitude will put off people to listening to what you have to say. It certainly has put me off by a lot. And I'm really tired of it. Keep it simple to people who don't understand. Sex is not gender, they are different, some people feel male, some people feel female, a lot of people feel that and are both, and some people are not part of the binary. The end. I don't see why this needs to be so complicated.

May I suggest that as a cisgender person you don't really have a perception of how trans* people feel when they are referred to by the wrong pronouns? Maybe to you people seem overly touchy, but how would you feel if everyone called you male, all the time?

I don't understand what put you off. In the pronoun thread, some people were confused as to the purpose of the pronoun field, and it was explained. It was the people who said "this is complicated, why can't we just go back to a gender field?" who were chastised; because that is missing the point entirely, and is favouring "easy" over "inclusive". Sometimes the right way to do things is simply more complicated, and there's no getting around that.

See, you say it doesn't need to be so complicated, but I honestly don't understand what you think is complicated. What you said is basically exactly what we've been saying. Not everyone is cis, not everyone falls in the gender binary, and as a general rule, people should be more sensitive to this and more accommodating to people who are outside these categories. It's great that you understand it, but other people don't. That's why we have to explain.

In general, I think that people are too quick to choose the easy option over the option that genuinely makes everyone feel comfortable. These are little things we are talking about - changing the pronoun you use in talking to people, understanding that not everyone is male and female and acknowledging that fact in everyday life, simply accepting that other people feel differently about these things, even if you happen to not understand them - and yet so many people refuse to do them. I don't understand. I can only assume that these people think their convenience is more important than other people's comfort, and that attitude is abhorrent to me.

(And finally, some semantics: sure, this is a debate, if you're using debate in the colloquial sense, but in that sense it means more or less the same as 'discussion'. If you aren't using debate in the colloquial sense, then this most definitely is not a debate, unless you're prepared to tell me what the motion is and who the proposition and opposition are. I get the impression that some people treat any thread where people disagree with each other as a debate, in which case I wonder what a discussion is? A thread where everyone goes "yup, that's right, couldn't have said it better myself"?)

 

[Arylett Charnoa]

Um. Firstly, you can care a lot about something without it relating directly to you. Making a safe space is not necessarily about your personal needs, it is mainly about accommodating others' personal needs into your worldview and your attitude.



That's because most places don't give a single fuck about being a safe space, and as a mod, as a member, I am quite comfortably proud of how much effort we go to here to be as inclusive as possible. That is never a bad thing.



You... wouldn't even use someone's preferred pronouns? Wow, that's... pretty horrible. There are other people in this thread who have expressed similar views, but at least they'd respect what someone else would prefer? And not going a single tiny bit out of your way in order to make someone else feel, probably, much more comfortable in conversation seems like a really spiteful thing to do. But whatever, I guess? Just don't be so surprised that you get 'flack' for such a dick move.



That's... mainly because they weren't already words?? Most words probably didn't look English before they were English, that's a really bizarre point to take offence in.

'They' is not adequate for a lot of reasons. First of all, um, ambiguity?? I don't just mean wondering whether the singular or plural is meant, it usually takes only a few seconds of subconscious context-deducing for that. But when you refer to a singular person as 'they', generally it's because their gender is unknown. My gender is not unknown. Can you not understand how this could make someone uncomfortable?

I like having a singular gender-neutral pronoun. I seriously don't understand why it's such a lot of skin off your back? Why do you care? By being cisgender you already things have easy for you. You don't want to help others get into the same place? Pronouns are not a hard thing to get your head around. Making mistakes, fine, everyone does this and it's in good nature and nobody really minds. Even if you think it might be hard to get used to someone using different pronouns than they did before! But firmly just rejecting something so simple, such a tiny effort to help someone in a really huge way? Why?



Erm... that's... an odd excuse, but okay. So if someone has an unusual looking name that doesn't ~fit~, would you refuse to use that? Sorry, your name doesn't look like it'd fit in English, I'll just call you Ben! You don't like the name Ben? WELL HAHA I'M USING IT ANYWAY because you feeling comfortable and not being triggered and having a fucking breakdown is much less of a deal than what I consider pleasant to look at/hear!



Fine, then people would probably make allowances if you screwed up a few times. Buuuut you could just use the same gender-neutral pronouns for people, maybe they wouldn't be so offended if you asked? The most common are sie/hir and e/eir/em, just use one set? Wow, one set of new morphemes to get your head around. Also? There are legitimate reasons why people like to use other ones. I don't like using sie/hir that much for my own personal use (obvs not if someone asked me because I'm not a jerk) because it feels too similar to female pronouns! Other people like ones they feel look or sound prettier, or feel closer to them, or they just feel right! So there are kind of reasons why there are lots of many.

I don't... really understand why it's so abhorrent for you. Having a lot of choice is nice for things like this, especially after a life of "sorry, but you have to use these pronouns and look this way and be called this and this just because we say so".



You're not used to them. Oh, and the best way to get used to something? Not refusing to do it.

Honestly, why is your reaction NO THIS IS TOO DIFFICULT rather than ahh I'm going to try a little harder! when this is, yes, you're right, a big deal? I just don't get it!



Actually, no. Language does not always work like that, take it from someone who's actually studied linguistics a bit. Neologisms are words created there-and-then for a particular purpose, because there is need for it. That's it. It happens all the time, every day, and usually for great reason. You seem a little confused. Language change happens gradually over time. Semantic shifts, yay!! But new, progressive terminology, no.



Okay, sorry, nobody really gives a fuck. I know everyone doesn't share my hatred/occasional trigger for the term PC, but seriously, do you think anyone cares about Daily Mail things like this? This is a broadly liberal, queer-friendly, mostly safe space forum and you're one of few who finds the pronoun field etc. unnecessary. Hmm, I wonder if there's a correlation between that and the fact that it barely concerns you.



I'm not going to blame you for not having heard of what is a pretty common, work-it-out-for-yourself kind of term, but why does it even feel strange to use...? 'a' is a pretty common prefix!



No, no, no, no, no. Even people who feel that gender is purely a societal construct, I don't think, would try to argue that gender is not important. Gender is kind of one of the foundations of culture?? Why would anyone call you shallow??? When did anyone? I can barely argue against this because just... nobody thinks this?? There aren't even that many people in this thread who've stated that to them, personally, gender isn't an important feeling that they have! And most of them make allowances for people who do feel it's important to them!



?????? But it's okay when you refer to someone as something they feel uncomfortable with? What? Why?



Lots of trans* people feel that gender is purely a societal construct, you'll find! Just because something is not an innate feeling (very few things are not at least something of a cultural product, so) does not speak much of it? It doesn't take away validity from things that are culturally produced. The whole point is that those things are important to us, have become important, have always been important for as long as anyone can remember. The family is a societal construct, education is a societal construct.



I don't understand at all why you're talking about how important gender is, to you personally, and then move on to god, just ~lighten up~ And again, making others comfortable is important. If I felt strongly cisgender, I am still fairly sure I would be very important in making people who weren't feel okay??

I'm not responding to any more of your post, this is already pretty disjointed. Sigh.

I'm not using this as a copout, but I was attempting to be civil. And clearly, this post is not civil at all. I don't mind being disagreed with, but your tone is the issue at hand here. Excuse me, don't give a fuck? No, I'm sorry. You're telling ME to lighten up, really? You're the one who used curse words, condescended me, and posted when you were angry rather than taking time to think it over.

You know what, no. You are a mod, and your response is entirely inappropriate. I am tired of this sort of behavior in this place, and I am not going to dignify any of the arguments against me with a response until you apologize to me for being such a jerk. There is absolutely no reason for me to be treated this way. I am not going to take this, I'm sorry.

 

[Adriane]

You know what, no. You are a mod, and your response is entirely inappropriate. I am tired of this sort of behavior in this place, and I am not going to dignify any of the arguments against me with a response until you apologize to me for being such a jerk. There is absolutely no reason for me to be treated this way. I am not going to take this, I'm sorry.

I find your response entirely hypocritical after your extremely triggering and ignorant post.

 

[opaltiger]

You know what, no. You are a mod, and your response is entirely inappropriate. I am tired of this sort of behavior in this place, and I am not going to dignify any of the arguments against me with a response until you apologize to me for being such a jerk. There is absolutely no reason for me to be treated this way. I am not going to take this, I'm sorry.

Being a mod doesn't exempt one from feeling strongly about certain issues. Cirrus used the word 'fuck' a few times. You told many people in this thread you thought part of their identity was 'utter nonsense'. Who was more offensive?

But still, if you insist on using this as a copout (and I'm sorry, but it is), perhaps you could reply to my post? I raised many of the same points Cirrus did.