Is it necessary for a trans* person to transition?

[Autumn]

I'm done arguing because I feel like this has been derailed enough and I don't want to get deeper into it, however I do want to address this one point:

How about you consider the fact that we're getting defensive because you have stated things that are anti-trans*?

when. "Hijacking the conversation because a couple of statements offended me" is not necessarily "anti-trans*". I do apologize for turning the conversation around and accidentally making it about something other than trans* issues, which is why I'm withdrawing from the argument. But I don't believe, aside from that, that I've stated actual anti-trans* sentiments. Please enlighten me.

 

[Adriane]

Some of you need to seriously chill the hell out. This thread is like a giant ball of frustration ravaging NYC or something.

I don't want to say too much, because posting in this thread is like prancing full steam ahead into an Angolan minefield

See and then when cis people do get involved, and they see that trans people are actually pretty legitimately angry, here comes the obligatory "take a chill pill" card.

Women, people of colour, etc. get the same thing (from men, white people, etc.) when they are understandably angry.

Cis people can give opinions all they want. Don't be surprised if we don't care about them. And it really should not be hard at all to understand why.

That said, it is not "necessary" at all to "transition", because different people have different ideas as to what transition/sufficient transition are for them. It could be as simple as wearing certain clothing and hairstyles. It doesn't even have to be that. For others, complete surgical procedures are necessary. And that's fine, too. The important thing for both cis- and trans* people to know is that these procedures are rarely available to many (most?) trans* people. For me, getting surgery would be equivalent to buying a nice car in cost. Trans or not, that is just not an option. Ditto hormones because insurance said they won't cover therapeutic solutions to sexual dysfunctions or fetishism. Yeah, they went there.

 

[Tarvos]

Idgaf if you don't do anything with what I say. I never oppressed you, it's your trouble if you get angry at everyone, including the people you need to get your rights (lest you need reminding, society is cis-dominated, meaning you'll need a fair few on YOUR side if you want your rights). You can either get insanely angry at people who actually mean well and you can see everything that is cis as the enemy, or you can not alienate the people who aren't being genuinely oppressive and are willing to give you your recognition and rights. You don't have to love them, but you can chill the fuck out and respond to them politely, that's the least you'd ask of anyone approaching you.

What people in this thread are doing is biting the hand that feeds. You can be legitimately angry at the people who oppress you, that's all good and well, but not everyone is out to get you. And the fact remains you got stuck in the system and you'll have to deal with the system the best you can, and to deal with the system means to work out a way to get your rights, since Transsexualistania as a country does not exist yet.

I prefer to think of people as people and not bother with the terminology. But if you don't want to chill and yell, be my guest.

for the record: idgaf who is being oppressed - women, dark-skinned people, people with AIDS, the Muslims on the corner

 

[Rainbow Dashie]

was going to put in my views from a trans woman's perspective but I see the topic has been far derailed off from the original questions and became a pointless argument

as much as I hate explaining my condition to everyone, I still patiently do it (granted I only found out I'm transsexual over half a year ago so I'll probably lose my patience too over the years, but) because some people actually are just ignorant but not hateful, and they might be willing to listen (even though it's impossible to properly explain my condition) and if they see that I'm calm about it, they might be respectful despite not fully understanding. but if I told them "I don't need to explain shit" or outright just said something hateful to them "because you are cis" then they'd just be like "well fuck you too". that attitude isn't getting the situation to anywhere better, it can only aggravate it

but I agree that cis people posting in a thread about trans* issues, constantly asking about what does gender dysphoria / identifying as something other than your assigned sex feel like / how do you define "man", "woman", etc. without the definitions being recursive, etc. will derail the thread (which are by the way the toughest questions that are impossible to 100% adequately answer to a cis person, which does make it harder for cis people to understand us, but it will just turn into an endless argument with bad analogies thrown back and forth, hence derailing the thread from the original discussions without even moving forward). maybe create a new thread only for trans* identified people to post in to discuss trans* issues among themselves? and if cis people have any questions they can post them in the QUILTBAG thread or ask through PM or in the old gender thread or just make a new separate thread for that too or whatever?

as for the original question, there are transsexual people who aren't dysphoric about certain parts of their body. I've talked with trans women (both lesbian and straight ones) who said they're happy with having a penis. also saw some trans men posting that they're happy with having a vagina. does that mean they are not transsexual just because they aren't dysphoric about one part of their body that is clearly specific for the sex they want to transition to? no. there's no "not being trans enough". as I assume the original question should've actually been "is it necessary for a trans* person to want to transition", I think that isn't the right way to look at it. anyone who feels gender dysphoria is trans*. and at the end of the day, is it relevant how far they want to take their transition if they won't/can't actually do it?

 

[Jolty]

ok
you /cannot/ generalise all cis people and say something like you are allowed to be angry at them all because cis people are 99%+ of the entire population and many trans people look cis too because all they want to do is just blend in. so a lot of the time you can't even friggin tell if someone is cis or trans.

i understand being angry because i get angry at the shit we get, who wouldn't, but for god's sake you being trans does not justify being an ass to every cis person here just because they make an input to the discussion. good job on making it harder to understand us.
and isn't "YOU CAN'T SAY THIS, THIS AND THIS BECAUSE YOU ARE CIS" kind of. the exact same shit that gets pulled on us all the time?

yeah we shouldn't need to be overly nice to get the most basic of shit, but being a complete tool doesn't help either.


also a question to whoever.
if you're trans and don't transition, do you still call yourself trans?
if yes, why would you want that label attached to you?

 

[shy ♡]

for the record: idgaf who is being oppressed - women, dark-skinned people, people with AIDS, the Muslims on the corner

Statement of the year.

ETA:

ok
you /cannot/ generalise all cis people and say something like you are allowed to be angry at them all because cis people are 99%+ of the entire population and many trans people look cis too because all they want to do is just blend in. so a lot of the time you can't even friggin tell if someone is cis or trans.

i understand being angry because i get angry at the shit we get, who wouldn't, but for god's sake you being trans does not justify being an ass to every cis person here just because they make an input to the discussion. good job on making it harder to understand us.
and isn't "YOU CAN'T SAY THIS, THIS AND THIS BECAUSE YOU ARE CIS" kind of. the exact same shit that gets pulled on us all the time?

yeah we shouldn't need to be overly nice to get the most basic of shit, but being a complete tool doesn't help either.

• Please re-read this thread.
• Where was anyone bullied for being cis?
• No where.
• Where did anyone say they hate all cis people?
• No where.
• Please learn to read what people say and not what you are assuming they say.
• No it is not as bad as what has been done to us. What has been done to us is murder, rape, being kicked out of our homes, being fired, removal of the most basic of human rights. Saying we hate cis people is NOTHING. NOTHING. Are you seriously comparing this? Seriously? And we didn't even SAY that. Christ.
• In conclusion if people would actually read threads everyone would be happier.

No one's stereotyping anyone, unless you consider being cis to be a stereotype. Then yes, we consider all cis people to be stereotyped as cis. The fact is, though, that cis people have zero reason to be tolerant, so it's quite easy to distance oneself from them. Just the fact that most cis people never seem to 'get' why someone is trans* is a big issue.

I love how y'all are great at reading.

 

[Cerberus87]

Oh God why do you post fun things when I'm not here? 0.o

Well, I think that part of the trans*ition is to change your body. I thought most if not all trans* people resent having a body which is opposite of what they want? Because, I mean, if you're a female, you want to have breasts. You want to be able to feel them and tell to the world you're a female. I'm not getting to the point of genital transition since in many cases it's hard/not possible due to various reasons (financial and legal being the most important), but if you're born with the wrong body, it's like being trapped in a prison so tight no one can get out of it. It must be really smothering.

 

[Tarvos]

Statement of the year.

You know what I mean. Everyone gets oppressed. Feminists got more rights, gays got more rights, blacks got more rights. There are more of them, but still. They didn't get mad everytime someone called them a nigger or a faggot. Instead they accepted the part of society that helped them get to where they are and look: GAY MARRIAGE EXISTS!

Want to not be oppressed, follow in these people's footsteps. It doesn't matter who the oppressed party is. You can have fun with semantics all you want.

 

[Jolty]

why do social justice kids use y'all all the time it really bugs me especially because usually they're not from a place that uses it
and the word folk
oh god when brits use it it's just embarrassing

also i never said people are being bullied for being cis or they hate all cis people. maybe you should read your own copypasta lol
there have been several posts generalising and trying to justify being angry at cis people though.

as a general rule, all of the hate and oppressing comes from the cis community.

but how can we be expected to immediately trust the group that we know is responsible for all the oppression, yanno

because the rest of society has a tendency to be oppressive douchebags.

i don't get how you can generalise such a vast amount of people though
i mean. i live in a shitty ass town full of assholes, but almost everyone who knows i am trans (i.e people who knew me before i realised) are fine with it/don't care. even people i would previosuly have thought would try and beat me up for it or something.


also this was funny because hypocrisy

Just act like a nice person and I'm sure we'll all realize hey, you're a nice person.

 

[shy ♡]

You know what I mean. Everyone gets oppressed. Feminists got more rights, gays got more rights, blacks got more rights. There are more of them, but still. They didn't get mad everytime someone called them a nigger or a faggot. Instead they accepted the part of society that helped them get to where they are and look: GAY MARRIAGE EXISTS!

Want to not be oppressed, follow in these people's footsteps. It doesn't matter who the oppressed party is. You can have fun with semantics all you want.

Honestly it's really hard for me to form a reply when you start using slurs. And thinking that black people or gay people didn't or don't get mad about it??? What world are you living in?

Also do you really think there are no gay or poc trans* people?

also i never said people are being bullied for being cis or they hate all cis people. maybe you should read your own copypasta lol
there have been several posts generalising and trying to justify being angry at cis people though.


i don't get how you can generalise such a vast amount of people though
i mean. i live in a shitty ass town full of assholes, but almost everyone who knows i am trans (i.e people who knew me before i realised) are fine with it/don't care. even people i would previosuly have thought would try and beat me up for it or something.

Since the post wasn't originally intended for you, it was not tailored for you. It still fit.

I don't believe it is generalizing to say that cis people are the oppressors in this situation. The same as white people being the oppressors to poc. And in the same vein, it's natural for poc to be distrustful of white people.

Also anecdotes =/= statistics. I'm glad the people you know are cool. That's great. Cis people are still oppressing us even if the people you know are cool.

also this was funny because hypocrisy

Unsure how this is hypocrisy but ok lol hilarious.

 

[Autumn]

yes. cis people are oppressing you. no one is denying that. however the way you're wording it it makes it sound as if ALL cis people are oppressing you and that they don't want to change the fact that you're oppressed.

I'm cis and I can't help it. But I don't go around arguing that trans* people should be oppressed because I'm cis and I am part of the group that oppresses them. I try to educate my cis friends whenever I can about the trans* community and the correct terminology to use, and certainly if it were up to me the trans* community would have rights. I'm doing what I can to make sure you're not oppressed! And yet it seems as if you are determined to believe that I, by nature of being cis, have it as a goal to oppress you.

That's what's really angering me. I understand why you can be upset at the presence of ignorant cis people in this conversation but the fact of the matter is, we're not all like that and I'd thank you to understand that some of us are trying to help.

ETA: And Pathos, I'd still like to know where I was expressing anti-trans* sentiments.

 

[surskitty]

I think it's already understood by absolutely everyone here that some people are trying to help, but if you expect a constant barrage of cookies or 'not all cis people are like that', you're part of the problem. It's understood there are people trying to not be assholes. But, like, shouldn't "I'm trying to not be an asshole!" be a given?

Also, I don't want to read back through the thread to find out who brought this up, but: gay marriage is not the end to all ills. Gay marriage means fuck-all when many trans people can't even reliably find fucking bathrooms.

What even was the bit that someone got 'die cis scum' as the point of?

 

[shy ♡]

Spoiler: images

These are all about racism and not gender, because no one really makes comics about gender. But it still applies.

ETA:

What even was the bit that someone got 'die cis scum' as the point of?

It was someone online who's famous in the trans* circles for reasons (idk) who's been raped/abused? by cis people so got that as a tattoo. It became a famous saying for reasons (idk).

 

[sovram]

I think everything in augment's post has been pretty much answered. This thread has actually opened my eyes to quite a few things -- especially the role of allies and nice vs good.

Mostly I wrote this post to thank those who stuck in long enough to make these points. I don't think it'll be necessary for me to answer the prompt. You probably know what I think.

 

[ultraviolet]

I think what a lot of people are trying to get at here isn't that 'oh no, trans* people are being mean to be because I am cis', it's that sure, fine, be wary of cis people because they have oppressed you literally forever. But there are people who want to make life easier for trans*people, and they're making a conscious effort not to oppress you (for example, me all the time because I really do not want to make anyone's life hard). That doesn't mean they need special treatment and for someone to hold their hand and tell them they're doing such a good job, it means they just don't want you to be mad at them! Responding sarcastically when people are genuinely trying to help doesn't really do much for anyone! being trans* doesn't mean you can be nasty someone just because you're an oppressed minority. Is someone oppressing you here right now? Should I feel like I'm treading on eggshells here? I just don't want people to be mad at me, and I'm pretty sure everyone else here feels the same. I'm not trying to whine about how boohoo I'm cis and everyone is being mean to me, but the attitude in here from everyone is crazy. This isn't about cis vs. trans* and I am so totally not trying to silence anybody, but this isn't going anywhere. There is more noise than discussion. Arguing about being mean to each other is so ridiculous I can't even

and yeah, sure, there hasn't really been a whole lot of generalising about cis people in this thread - but there has been a lot of 'well, you can't talk about this because you don't have trans* experience', which while true, should kind of been addressed at the start of this thread that this really was a discussion for people who are trans*. This is not going to be immediately obvious to a lot of people, especially since every other quiltbag thread has basically been open to everybody. You don't always have to reply to someone! If someone's asking a question about being trans* where it's not relevant, just leave it if you don't want to answer! This is better than mocking them!

And really guys, if you are really feeling so hurt about some off-hand comment about how cis people oppress trans* -- that is kind of how minorities work! nobody is saying it is directly your fault you are doing this aarrrgh but you're probably in a priveleged position in comparison and don't have to deal with this level of shit on a daily basis. People are angry for good reasons, and not necessarily specifically at you.

Like, I get some of you are angry, sure. But have some sort of filter between brain and keyboard, people. It is not necessary to continuously bite at each other. It only takes one really small snide remark to create an argument of 'you were mean to me I am offended araara!' If someone is actually honestly making you feel bad or triggered or something - get out of the thread, talk to a moderator who isn't involved or something, whatever. It is so totally okay to just not be in a thread anymore if you feel that uncomfortable. I am not telling you to bite your tongue, but consider if what you're saying is being said just so you can mock someone and feel more self-assured about your own opinion or if you're actually having a discussion with someone (this goes for everyone jsyk). Similarly, if you're someone who's only going to comment about how everyone is arguing -- buzz right off, go away forever, thanks, that is more or less spam.

Anyway, considering that this is basically going around in circles, how about those who are interested go back to what the topic was even about in the first place; I think this was somewhere around page 2. To reiterate: if you have questions about trans* things, go and ask them in the gender thread but remember that this is kind of really hard to explain to someone who isn't trans* and that it's evidently pretty goddamn variable, so.

 

[Dinru]

Let's go back on topic!

also a question to whoever.
if you're trans and don't transition, do you still call yourself trans?
if yes, why would you want that label attached to you?

Yes, I personally still call myself trans. Maybe not openly around other people because I don't really feel like telling them all the intricacies of my gender and the complicated politics of my decision not to transition when the entire conversation would end in "but you can still call me she and think of me as a girl idgaf" anyway. I call myself that because I am that. I pretend to be cis in my daily life, and I realize that gives me mundo privilege and different experiences from other trans* folks, but at the end of the day, I'm not a girl but society has designated that I be one anyway. When I sit and watch TV at night I absorb the societal messages aimed at both men and women. I see both groups as intricately different from me. Never in my life have I felt I fully belong to either group. (note: I know these things are not the end-all-be-all of gender.) I am not a girl and I don't really care what anyone else thinks, unless someone in this thread can convince me that I'm actively harming the trans* community by id'ing this way.

Oh God why do you post fun things when I'm not here? 0.o

Well, I think that part of the trans*ition is to change your body. I thought most if not all trans* people resent having a body which is opposite of what they want? Because, I mean, if you're a female, you want to have breasts. You want to be able to feel them and tell to the world you're a female. I'm not getting to the point of genital transition since in many cases it's hard/not possible due to various reasons (financial and legal being the most important), but if you're born with the wrong body, it's like being trapped in a prison so tight no one can get out of it. It must be really smothering.

but see the interesting thing is that not everyone experiences that smothering dysphoria, and transition is not an end-all-be-all cure for dysphoria anyway!

 

[Butterfree]

One last point regarding the whole "you're hateful towards people just for being cis" issue.

I think there's a difference between explaining and excusing behaviour.

It is completely understandable that trans* people would lash out in revulsion when somebody doesn't get it. God knows I've felt that way when men aren't getting feminism. But here's the thing: just because it's understandable does not make it okay. It's not okay to treat other people like crap, even if there are perfectly valid, understandable, sympathetic reasons for your anger.

No, you don't have to give anyone cookies for not being an asshole. But asking to have a civil discussion instead of being yelled at is not asking for cookies; it's asking to be treated like a human being. And yeah, you can be furious with the fact that people often don't treat you like a human being, simply because of who you are... but this doesn't license you to be rude and mean to other people. It makes it very understandable in some situations - but it doesn't make it okay.

So several people here should try to be more sympathetic to the fact that yeah, trans* people are pretty severely oppressed by cis people, it's very understandable they'd want to have discussions without cis people derailing the argument into being about how trans* people treat cis people, and they have good reasons for being angered by posts that they find insensitive or triggering. Some other people should consider that even if you have very valid reasons to be angry, this doesn't mean you're entitled to being as ferocious or mean as you like in response without being called on it. "Die cis scum" is perfectly understandable given what people deal with simply for being trans* - but it's also vicious and hostile, and on a forum where vicious hostility in general is not allowed, it would not be an appropriate way to express your anger, even with full acknowledgement that you have every right to be angry:

Civilly trying to educate members when they do something wrong is encouraged, even if you aren't a moderator; repeatedly lashing out in overt hostility at other members is not, even if you technically avoid direct personal insults.

So if you're severely triggered or angered by something someone posts and are sick and tired of civilly educating people, please just take a deep breath and don't post, or post when you've calmed down and can do it in a collected way, rather than lashing out. It's not that your anger isn't justified, but that not all ways of expressing it are appropriate on this forum.


I don't think forbidding cis people from posting in the thread altogether is warranted, but I do think that if you're cis and transness doesn't make sense to you, this isn't the thread to discuss it in; this thread is about transness from the perspective of trans* people and what cis people think of it just isn't really relevant. If you're cis and want to share something you've learned from other trans* people, though, I would guess people wouldn't have a problem with those perspectives being included in the discussion (right?), so long as they're offered with caution and awareness that you can't actually speak for trans* people, only relay what you've heard.

 

[Adriane]

I don't think forbidding cis people from posting in the thread altogether is warranted, but I do think that if you're cis and transness doesn't make sense to you, this isn't the thread to discuss it in; this thread is about transness from the perspective of trans* people and what cis people think of it just isn't really relevant. If you're cis and want to share something you've learned from other trans* people, though, I would guess people wouldn't have a problem with those perspectives being included in the discussion (right?), so long as they're offered with caution and awareness that you can't actually speak for trans* people, only relay what you've heard.

Right; in such cases, cis people should not be surprised when we don't put much stock into their opinions, much like the white guy in a group of black people, the dude-bro in a class of feminists, or the person who's not actually in a wheelchair. You're welcome to say what you want to say, and we do get many cis people are genuinely interested in understanding and helping -- but that's pretty much limited to "not being a jerk" and "calling out those who are being a jerk" as that's really what it takes to solve our problems.

The "but I have friends who are black/gay/whatever" quantifier is just as invalid here.

 

[Cerberus87]

Right; in such cases, cis people should not be surprised when we don't put much stock into their opinions, much like the white guy in a group of black people, the dude-bro in a class of feminists, or the person who's not actually in a wheelchair. You're welcome to say what you want to say, and we do get many cis people are genuinely interested in understanding and helping -- but that's pretty much limited to "not being a jerk" and "calling out those who are being a jerk" as that's really what it takes to solve our problems.

The "but I have friends who are black/gay/whatever" quantifier is just as invalid here.

Yeah, but you need the cis people to pass bills, right? ;)

 

[Adriane]

Yeah, but you need the cis people to pass bills, right? ;)

Saying things like this is like telling the Little Rock Nine they needed the white president to send in the National Guard.