Out of Context TVTropes Mafia Quotes Mafia

[JackPK]

post-ISOing koko and Seshas, I think I am comfortable putting my vote on Seshas for now for three reasons

1. rarimewt's arguments have just felt persuasive to me, idk

2. Seshas' posts in the early 300s (e.g. 326, 334) feel disingenuous in a way I find difficult to describe? like, Seshas is an experienced player who's demonstrated consistently that she's good at the game, so it doesn't make sense to me for her to be confused about cult mechanics. maybe I'm jumping to conclusions but it feels more like she was trying to waste time/lead discussion into an unproductive direction/raise doubts about how mechanics work when it's easy to just like... look up cults on the mafiascum and mafiauniverse wikis

3. ask me in a few Days about my third reason, I'm not comfortable explaining it yet

 

[Despicable Meme]

"trebek sounds cultist" > eh, probably fine/3p, disregard > i think there's seriously a chance mafia ~= cult > [mostly discarding earlier trebek read] > shrug at prospect of cult

i feel like, if you're townreading trebek, this should actually suggest towniness for seshas to you. as mafia, wouldn't she capitalize on the opportunity for a mislynch? several people were echoing the idea that trebek was a cult member at the time.

I am also townreading trebek at this point fwiw, but the crucial thing is that Seshas wasn't. while mafiosi also have an incentive to hunt cult, it's worth noting that they can do this in their own time, and potentially have incentives to allow cults to spread a little before putting the kibosh on them (one, cultafia; two, the possibility that cult vannilaizes the players it recruits, which means less PRs for town)

i see your point, but don't know if i think that the absence of a bad push = towncred for seshas automatically, especially if she's mafia and content to let the cult grow :v

it may not be automatic towncred, but i definitely don't think it's a BAD look either. also, mafia should not be content to let the cult grow whatsoever—they both win they achieve majority, and mafia is only going to shrink overtime while cult expands.

the above also applies to this

I dunno; this feels quite a lot like you're both coming up with reasons why seshas could be town despite her posts, and not because of her posts. I suppose it's understandable coming from Keldeo who has to do this on a lot of unread posts and... kyeugh has a quasi mech clear anyway, but regardless

i don't see how "i don't think her posts are scummy and in fact think they're fine" is reasoning in spite of her posts? it actually seems to me like you're looking for reasons to feel bad about her posts to support your read rather than genuinely engaging with the information. i'd probably be scumleaning you for it if not for the rnp thing, because you're definitely tunneling and on a person i'm fairly sure is town no less.

funny enough, I feel the exact same way about you. the PM thing probably clears you, but if it wasn't for that, I'd be wigged to a burning intensity about how set you are on Seshas being town and Kokorico being mafia, when all you have on the former is "I disagree with the going scumspec" (which points to a null read, not a town read) and all you have on the latter is "vibe bad", despite you and Seshas being prompted to elaborate multiple times by now.

I am, admittedly, focused on the Seshas wagon about as much for the scumread that I don't have time to fully substantiate (reading seshas posts is. hard) as for the science potential and for it being the less worse wagon rn, because I can't whatsoever see these alleged kokorico tone problems

anyways -- the issue isn't that you're saying "she doesn't sound scummy", it's that you both keep introducing reasoning that Seshas herself never made. if I'm scumreading her, I'm obligated to figure out what her real thinking process was, but if you're townreading her, shouldn't her own arguments be self-sufficient?

 

[storm]

fwiw, despite all the seshas reactiontalk i've been doing i fall in camp (a); i'm not really inclined to take the existence of any of the immunity-referenced roles at face value just yet, i just have kinda latched on to this because i'm hoping there's some AI talk that's been generated by it
-m

at least by next day hopefully we can narrow down some of the possibilities? (it should probably be pretty clear no neighbourhoods exist if no one reports being in one, ofc, or being neighbourized) I'm also wary of dismissing all the immunities, and like. mixing in some which will actually be useful alongside a bunch of baseless red herrings feels like a very bastardy, "this will fuel a lot of paranoia" thing to do

it seems pretty unlikely that mine matters at all tho, and it... still is not helpful today! :/

 

[Keldeo]

kokorico

I feel like he's rushing a stance on the cultist thing for the purpose of taking one, instead of proceeding in good faith

Inclined to say this specific tack makes Seshas/koko not w/w at least. It's like... if they were mafia partners, of course koko would be acting in "good faith" about a threat to both of them, so that occurs less to say?

 

[tbh²]

fwiw, despite all the seshas reactiontalk i've been doing i fall in camp (a); i'm not really inclined to take the existence of any of the immunity-referenced roles at face value just yet, i just have kinda latched on to this because i'm hoping there's some AI talk that's been generated by it
-m

at least by next day hopefully we can narrow down some of the possibilities? (it should probably be pretty clear no neighbourhoods exist if no one reports being in one, ofc, or being neighbourized) I'm also wary of dismissing all the immunities, and like. mixing in some which will actually be useful alongside a bunch of baseless red herrings feels like a very bastardy, "this will fuel a lot of paranoia" thing to do

it seems pretty unlikely that mine matters at all tho, and it... still is not helpful today! :/

yeah i didn't mean that i want to dismiss them, i mean that i think it's very clear that "all of the immunity-referenced roles exist" is a false statement when the mafia recruiter/cult recruiter roles like, cannot exist in the same setup imo, and when there's a loverizer/neighborizer/masonizer claim. it is also why i (and i think VM) have been quiet; what i have isn't immediately verifiable

-m

 

[Keldeo]

Hey, storm, do you have a stance between Seshas/koko right now?

 

[storm]

I'm still really uncertain about reads in general, but what's been said about seshas seeming more confused than is warranted given her experience strikes me as the most... valid? firm? seeming reason for a vote, so I suppose that's what I'm leaning towards?

tho also my brain is currently kind of mush as weather is still Ongoing and I bet out of spite it won't abate and take my headache with it until past end of day, and the like. Greater Seshas Meta Read going on rn is essentially a vortex that eats my thoughts whenever I try to look at it

 

[Keldeo]

anyways -- the issue isn't that you're saying "she doesn't sound scummy", it's that you both keep introducing reasoning that Seshas herself never made. if I'm scumreading her, I'm obligated to figure out what her real thinking process was, but if you're townreading her, shouldn't her own arguments be self-sufficient?

Ehh, probably? I don't think I'm like actually townreading them, to be clear... so far in catchup I mildly liked their early read on you/RNP situation, but idg their vote on koko really and I haven't seen most of this cultist stuff.

I feel like I'm always tempted to townread the abstracted way they phrase certain things at like all times (cf. ~treestump-punishing aspect of multiball~) because it makes it seem like there's that thought process going on that I then fill in the blanks on, but I ~trust you and tbh so maybe I should just follow.

 

[kyeugh]

funny enough, I feel the exact same way about you. the PM thing probably clears you, but if it wasn't for that, I'd be wigged to a burning intensity about how set you are on Seshas being town and Kokorico being mafia, when all you have on the former is "I disagree with the going scumspec" (which points to a null read, not a town read) and all you have on the latter is "vibe bad", despite you and Seshas being prompted to elaborate multiple times by now.

that's not really all i have for seshas. i don't believe these wagons are v/v, and seshas voted very early and basically unprompted for a player i also scumread. that's a good look for her in my eyes. it just happens that i'm also not particularly convinced by the arguments against her. i don't expect my read on koko to work for everyone, which is why i haven't been pushing it.

it's not the fact that you're scumreading seshas alone that bothers me here. tbh² doesn't like her either, and they're one of my top town reads. but tbh² is willing to participate in a discussion about it and critically consider their reads and the reads of others, whereas you've established a pattern of running into give your reads or point at those of others who agree with you, and then neglect to engage with points other people make beyond that you don't like them (for no clear reason other than that they contradict your read), which is something that irks me a lot. you're not really participating in a discussion here, you're just pushing a wagon, and a fairly flimsy one at that.

anyways -- the issue isn't that you're saying "she doesn't sound scummy", it's that you both keep introducing reasoning that Seshas herself never made. if I'm scumreading her, I'm obligated to figure out what her real thinking process was, but if you're townreading her, shouldn't her own arguments be self-sufficient?

like what?

 

[kyeugh]

the mafia recruiter/cult recruiter roles like, cannot exist in the same setup im

hmmm, why not? mafia recruiter only works once, ime.

 

[Keldeo]

Gonna maybe repeat a mistake from Tarot, but I think if Seshas is actually mafia* here either their partners aren't present, or like... I guess Skylar's stance here would make sense as a partner, but the town role PM thing seems legit (inb4 Mawile provided mafia with sample role PMs), or there is some totally unnecessary bussing/TMIing going on.

*mafia = specifically ingroup anti-town faction etc. etc., which would make koko not-mafia imo and leave em extremely open to be pushed as a second option

 

[tbh²]

the mafia recruiter/cult recruiter roles like, cannot exist in the same setup im

hmmm, why not? mafia recruiter only works once, ime.

oh i didn't know. i was literally envisioning like. Two Cults.
-m

 

[Keldeo]

the mafia recruiter/cult recruiter roles like, cannot exist in the same setup im

hmmm, why not? mafia recruiter only works once, ime.

oh i didn't know. i was literally envisioning like. Two Cults.
-m

One ought to have at least two,

 

[storm]

I will say during tarot mafia we were pretty... callous about defending fellow mafia from suspicion? which definitely worked in our favour for appearing innocent since we weren't working hard to keep our fellows alive, so it's possible given it worked once that mafia could be trying that again

but we also had a somewhat large group and several more useful and less useful power roles (one which was mine,,, if I had been less inexperienced I probably should've been lynched instead of trebek ksghrisgh), so if there's only a few in this game - I forget who raised that point, but I think it was very early on? - it's probably a less likely tactic?? idk

 

[kyeugh]

Seshas' posts in the early 300s (e.g. 326, 334) feel disingenuous in a way I find difficult to describe? like, Seshas is an experienced player who's demonstrated consistently that she's good at the game, so it doesn't make sense to me for her to be confused about cult mechanics. maybe I'm jumping to conclusions but it feels more like she was trying to waste time/lead discussion into an unproductive direction/raise doubts about how mechanics work when it's easy to just like... look up cults on the mafiascum and mafiauniverse wikis

mm, i agree somewhat on this point to an extent, but i got similar and much more pronounced feelings from koko's posts here and here. i'd be curious to hear your thoughts on those and how you feel they compare to the posts from seshas's you specified.

 

[kyeugh]

Gonna maybe repeat a mistake from Tarot, but I think if Seshas is actually mafia* here either their partners aren't present, or like... I guess Skylar's stance here would make sense as a partner, but the town role PM thing seems legit (inb4 Mawile provided mafia with sample role PMs), or there is some totally unnecessary bussing/TMIing going on.

*mafia = specifically ingroup anti-town faction etc. etc., which would make koko not-mafia imo and leave em extremely open to be pushed as a second option

hmmmmm. i'm curious who the seshas-voters think seshas's partners might be.

 

[Keldeo]

I will say during tarot mafia we were pretty... callous about defending fellow mafia from suspicion? which definitely worked in our favour for appearing innocent since we weren't working hard to keep our fellows alive, so it's possible given it worked once that mafia could be trying that again

but we also had a somewhat large group and several more useful and less useful power roles (one which was mine,,, if I had been less inexperienced I probably should've been lynched instead of trebek ksghrisgh), so if there's only a few in this game - I forget who raised that point, but I think it was very early on? - it's probably a less likely tactic?? idk

Yeah, I was thinking about how I miscleared mewtini in Tarot for bussing... although Jack's vote ended up looking bad there and I should have pressed it more. In general, though, I think the assumption that mafia do actually have some amount of self-preservation among themselves is a valid one.

 

[tbh²]

hmmmmm. i'm curious who the seshas-voters think seshas's partners might be.

aside from 'people who aren't here' i don't really know tbh. like i guess you could make sense but. meh?
i think it's possible that jack/storm could be jumping on late (as fellow wolves w seshas) for cred or something but that's not like, something i think
-m

 

[JackPK]

Seshas' posts in the early 300s (e.g. 326, 334) feel disingenuous in a way I find difficult to describe? like, Seshas is an experienced player who's demonstrated consistently that she's good at the game, so it doesn't make sense to me for her to be confused about cult mechanics. maybe I'm jumping to conclusions but it feels more like she was trying to waste time/lead discussion into an unproductive direction/raise doubts about how mechanics work when it's easy to just like... look up cults on the mafiascum and mafiauniverse wikis

mm, i agree somewhat on this point to an extent, but i got similar and much more pronounced feelings from koko's posts here and here. i'd be curious to hear your thoughts on those and how you feel they compare to the posts from seshas's you specified.

hm, good point. but fwiw it feels to me like e's more responding to the "what even are cult mechanics" discussion that started with Trebek and Seshas circa 325/326, which everyone in the thread was talking about at that time

if koko is scum, the posts you pointed out could be an opportunistic attempt to keep wasting time, but if e's villager, they could easily just be what everyone else was doing, talking in circles because the topic was at hand

tldr I guess I feel like those posts are kind of null indicator value because I feel like they're following the flow of everyone else in thread at that time, whereas I'm leaning more to scumreading Seshas' posts bc they're a significant part of what kicked off that topic in the first place

 

[tbh²]

tbh i do agree with skylar that this post is ?_? and i don't know if i should read it as scum stirring up confusion/halting other discourse, or as confused!townie. i have like. repeatedly gone back to this

because in that situation, the cult's wincon wouldn't just be "reach majority", it would be "reach majority before the town eliminate the mafia", which is... kinda arbitrary, and also allows the cult to be harmed by bad play from the mafia

I may be overthinking this but I don't see how it makes sense (in mafia games in general, not just this one) for town to win when not all antitown factions have been eliminated

-m