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Theism, Religion and Lack thereof
- Thread starter Aisling
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Aisling
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Re: Christianity
twitch
I leave for a week and this happens >:T Even though like every mod is aware of the existence of this thread and hasn't done anything about it I'm merging it with the other one just because I'm kind of anal like that. Especially since it's kind of derailed into religion in general, predictably.
twitch
I leave for a week and this happens >:T Even though like every mod is aware of the existence of this thread and hasn't done anything about it I'm merging it with the other one just because I'm kind of anal like that. Especially since it's kind of derailed into religion in general, predictably.
Teh Ebil Snorlax
izombie, uzombie, weallzombie
I personally think Jesus was a cool hippie preacher man whose psychotic followers thought he was the Son of God and made up a load of the stuff in the Bible to suit their own ideologies (read: Andrew Schlafly), hence why the Gospels not only disagree but also frequently contradict each other.
1. Luftballon
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shy ♡
whispers in gay
Most of the bible seems to be a translation error, including heaven/hell.
1. Luftballon
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Squornshellous Beta
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Pwnemon
will remain confined to the pokemon topics
I'd love to see one of these contradictions.
Powerdrill
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#1 bro
FEELING GREAT, FEELING GOOD, HOW ARE YOU?
1. Luftballon
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here it is.
EDIT: and while I'm at it, god wants you dead is an amazing book and you should read it read it read it
EDIT: and while I'm at it, god wants you dead is an amazing book and you should read it read it read it
Last edited:
Phantom
Uh, I didn't do it.
Does anyone ever read my posts? I posted this over a month ago!
http://forums.dragonflycave.com/showpost.php?p=419724&postcount=240
I've been looking through this thread and I get the feeling I might be eaten alive for voicing my opinions here but oh well. Also, forgive the length of my reply, I want to counter each of the statements that particularly interested me. *laughs nervously* First off, Phantom. I clicky-clicked the link you gave in the above post and read through it and checked your bible references (by the way, you really should include the version of the bible that you're using, since each translation is slightly different. The NIV [new international version] is the one I usually use and the one that I'm verifying in.)
Wow big mess up right here. Here's the order as it was written (do not forget that it was written by humans who were told the order by God - which means they can make mistakes writing it down. Plus, really, does it even matter what order the world was made in, we're all here now aren't we?) Okay, and please remember that many times God would give the person who would write thsi stuff down a vision, and they would write what they saw.
1: God made the heavens and the earth. This could possibly mean Heaven and Earth, or it could mean the earth and sky (Sky meaning an atmosphere that would keep the water from boiling off into space, supposing that moisture would still boil off despite there being no sun or stars yet. The atmosphere wouldn't be breathable yet, though.) nobody knows and there's no proof for or against it. It all comes down to just nobody knowing what the intended meaning was, but I'm going to take the meaning literal, exactly as it was written. (Genesis 1:1)
2: The earth had no form, no mountains, no sun, no stars, nothing. Imagine looking out over the ocean at midnight on a moonless night when the sky is covered by thick clouds so no stars show. Basically pitch black. There's nothing but water. For those who support evolution, etc. do not forget God's timetable - 1,000 years = 1 day for god. God was hovering over this formless, lightless ocean. (Genesis 1:2)
3: God made light. The bible says he said "Let there be light". Whether or not he physically said this or not cannot be proven or disproven - there is NO proof for or against it, all we have is the account of the person writing this who was told what happened by God. Obviously, God could not actually explain the very mechanics of what he did, nobody would understand it or be able to write it down due to the unfathomable complexity of it. Then God seperated the Light form the Dark and made the Light day and the Dark night. So the sun was made and our planet that was floating through empty space earlier is now floating around the sun. Orbiting.(Genesis 1:3-5)
4: God made the sky. For those of you who want to be very scientific about it, he made an atmosphere that could be breathed and that could support life. FYI if you take into account that God's sense of time is different than ours and that one 'day' for him is a LOT longer then it is for us, then this sequence of how things were made IS supported by evolution. The sun would start the whole sequence that would make the atmosphere breathable. (Genesis 1:6-8)
5: God made dry ground. NOTICE it doesn't say he made earth (as in..the hard surface that the water was on) now, he had made earth way back when he made the entity or planet known as 'earth', the earth was just covered by water. Now is when the dry ground appears. Tectonic activity would be happening now from orbiting, from the process that was making the atmosphere breathable, from all of these things that we're forcing their influences upon our little planet. (Genesis 1:9-10)
6: God made vegetation. Plants and trees are now beginning to appear. (Genesis 1:11-13)
7: God made the stars and moon. Before anyone complains about how was the sun there before all of this stuff - nobody knows that it was. If you were having a vision, seeing all of this happen and writing it down, you would write things down as you saw them. You wouldn't see the microbiology in action that led up to plants growing, or animals appearing. And you wouldn't see the stars being made if, say, the sky was severely obscured by clouds from the process that makes the atmosphere breathable. But the sky is cleared up now (Thank photosynthesis among other things ^.^) and the person having the vision can now see the night sky. And what does he see? Stars. The moon. And he writes it down. (Genesis 1:14-19)
8: God made the creatures of the water and birds of the air. Now, this doesn't mean he just now made them, like *poof* out of nowhere. It's just that this is when the human having the vision sees them appear. He's just now seeing creatures swimming and flying. So he writes it down. Also, if you disagree with me saying that this person is having a vision, watching what's happening, then please explain why it's written "God did this, God did that" instead of "I did this, I did that" like it would have been if God himself was speaking? (Genesis 1:20-23)
9: God made land animals. This is when the land animals appear and the viewer writes it down. It says livestock, creatures that move upon the ground, and wild animals. That puts them into three categories that they will remain under pretty much forever. Livestock - the animals that will be raised by humans. Creatures that move upon the ground - any animal/bug/whatever that does not fall under the categories of livestock or wild animals. And finally - Wild animals - the animals NOT meant to be tamed by man. Nobody will see a pack of lions pulling a plow. (Genesis 1:24-25)
10: Finally! This is when God made humans. He put humans at the top, over everything else, but he intended for us to rule over them fairly. He didn't say to dominate them or overwhelm them, he said to rule over them. Just like a king and queen should rule fairly over their kingdom.
That's the order that things were created in, or at least, the order that someone viewing the whole thing in fast-forward would have seen.
Sigh..typo's. Lots of them. Moving past that, here's what that passage says:
The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
Notice the past tense when he says the Lord God HAD made all that stuff. He's saying that God HAD made all of that stuff and now it was time for Adam to name the animals. We don't know what he named them, their name's nowadays aren't the names they had back then, but lets not get into that at the moment, this post is already getting very, very long. The point is he isn't saying God made Adam first and then the animals. There's no contradiction there.
This is what it says: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
He is not saying God made them simultaneously, he's saying he made them male and female. As opposed to male and male or female and female. He's telling you their gender =/
Mark 1:14:After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God.
John 1:43:The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me."
John 3:22-24:After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. (This was before John was put in prison.)
Okay, John 1:43 says NOTHING about John whatsoever, so I'm just going to pretend you did not post that as a reference proving your point, considering it proves and disproves nothing. John 3:22-24 says that John was baptized in that area before he was put in prison. It doesn't mention Galilee and it doesn't say he wasn't put in prison. There is no contradiction here.
This is frustrating because it picks and chooses what it means instead of actually saying what the scripture means.
Matthew 6:5-6: And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
That means that you don't pray out in public for the sole purpose of getting some personal gain out of it. Praying in public is NOT bad or against any rules of Christianity. The point is what your intent is. Is your intent to get personal gain out of it from other people, or is the point to talk to God?
1 Timothy 2:8: I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
How does this have anything to do with prayer in public being condemned or not in the bible '.'? Paul is saying that he wants people to someday be able to pray without anyone else getting mad or disputing it.
This is similar to the praying thing. You are encouraged to do good works and be seen doing them, but not for personal gain. You are encouraged to do good deeds so that when people think of Christianity, they think of people who follow Christ and are honest, caring, willing to help and do good even when they don't have to. It's all about the reason why.
Agh this is frustrating! You took John 3:13 out of context! Look, this is it IN CONTEXT. Jesus is speaking: "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Jesus is saying that nobody there has went up to heaven and seen heavenly things, so if he spoke of heavenly things, how could they possibly understand? They can't and won't even understand or accept earthly things.
Once again used out of context. AND used with a bad translation. Here:
2 Timothy 3:16-17: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
1 Corinthians 7:6: I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. (Jesus said this, saying that God didn't command him to say this, he was choosing to, it was a gift not a command.)
1 Corinthians 7:12: To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. (Jesus is saying that he is saying this, God did not command him to say this. It's something that he has learned.)
2 Corinthians 11:16-20: I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then receive me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.
Now that it's all in context, it's very apparent that there are not inconsistencies or contradictions in any of these examples.
The bible is imperfect because it was written by humans to begin with. Each of them stated their accounts of what they saw and experience, naturally there will be inconsistencies due to bias, gossip, and different mindsets of the viewers. Also, nobody is claiming to be perfect. If there was irrefutable proof that the bible was true, and you were totally 100% against the bible, would you not want to have that proof removed? Or for a less extreme example, wouldn't you like to remove everything in the bible that you disagreed with and just keep the morals and things that you agree with? People are affected by their opinions and other influences. For example, Satan. Many consider him a myth, even devout Christians. They may consider him a metaphoric portion of the bible, not meant to be taken literally, but I believe that it's literal. If earth is now Satan's domain then will he not try to alter people's perception's to drive them away from God and to do things like removing portions of the bible? People often times blame God or say things like "Why would I believe in or put my faith in a God that lets all of this evil happen in the world?" not realizing that this world is Satan's world at the moment. But it is written that Jesus will return and take back the world, so yeah, God hasn't exactly abandoned us or is being a huge jerk or anything. Honestly, if you were a being that never died, but lived on throughout eternity, your perception of time would be different, would it not? It says in the bible that a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is but a day to God. (2 Peter 3:8 NIV) "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."Phantom said:
Phantom said:
Wow big mess up right here. Here's the order as it was written (do not forget that it was written by humans who were told the order by God - which means they can make mistakes writing it down. Plus, really, does it even matter what order the world was made in, we're all here now aren't we?) Okay, and please remember that many times God would give the person who would write thsi stuff down a vision, and they would write what they saw.
1: God made the heavens and the earth. This could possibly mean Heaven and Earth, or it could mean the earth and sky (Sky meaning an atmosphere that would keep the water from boiling off into space, supposing that moisture would still boil off despite there being no sun or stars yet. The atmosphere wouldn't be breathable yet, though.) nobody knows and there's no proof for or against it. It all comes down to just nobody knowing what the intended meaning was, but I'm going to take the meaning literal, exactly as it was written. (Genesis 1:1)
2: The earth had no form, no mountains, no sun, no stars, nothing. Imagine looking out over the ocean at midnight on a moonless night when the sky is covered by thick clouds so no stars show. Basically pitch black. There's nothing but water. For those who support evolution, etc. do not forget God's timetable - 1,000 years = 1 day for god. God was hovering over this formless, lightless ocean. (Genesis 1:2)
3: God made light. The bible says he said "Let there be light". Whether or not he physically said this or not cannot be proven or disproven - there is NO proof for or against it, all we have is the account of the person writing this who was told what happened by God. Obviously, God could not actually explain the very mechanics of what he did, nobody would understand it or be able to write it down due to the unfathomable complexity of it. Then God seperated the Light form the Dark and made the Light day and the Dark night. So the sun was made and our planet that was floating through empty space earlier is now floating around the sun. Orbiting.(Genesis 1:3-5)
4: God made the sky. For those of you who want to be very scientific about it, he made an atmosphere that could be breathed and that could support life. FYI if you take into account that God's sense of time is different than ours and that one 'day' for him is a LOT longer then it is for us, then this sequence of how things were made IS supported by evolution. The sun would start the whole sequence that would make the atmosphere breathable. (Genesis 1:6-8)
5: God made dry ground. NOTICE it doesn't say he made earth (as in..the hard surface that the water was on) now, he had made earth way back when he made the entity or planet known as 'earth', the earth was just covered by water. Now is when the dry ground appears. Tectonic activity would be happening now from orbiting, from the process that was making the atmosphere breathable, from all of these things that we're forcing their influences upon our little planet. (Genesis 1:9-10)
6: God made vegetation. Plants and trees are now beginning to appear. (Genesis 1:11-13)
7: God made the stars and moon. Before anyone complains about how was the sun there before all of this stuff - nobody knows that it was. If you were having a vision, seeing all of this happen and writing it down, you would write things down as you saw them. You wouldn't see the microbiology in action that led up to plants growing, or animals appearing. And you wouldn't see the stars being made if, say, the sky was severely obscured by clouds from the process that makes the atmosphere breathable. But the sky is cleared up now (Thank photosynthesis among other things ^.^) and the person having the vision can now see the night sky. And what does he see? Stars. The moon. And he writes it down. (Genesis 1:14-19)
8: God made the creatures of the water and birds of the air. Now, this doesn't mean he just now made them, like *poof* out of nowhere. It's just that this is when the human having the vision sees them appear. He's just now seeing creatures swimming and flying. So he writes it down. Also, if you disagree with me saying that this person is having a vision, watching what's happening, then please explain why it's written "God did this, God did that" instead of "I did this, I did that" like it would have been if God himself was speaking? (Genesis 1:20-23)
9: God made land animals. This is when the land animals appear and the viewer writes it down. It says livestock, creatures that move upon the ground, and wild animals. That puts them into three categories that they will remain under pretty much forever. Livestock - the animals that will be raised by humans. Creatures that move upon the ground - any animal/bug/whatever that does not fall under the categories of livestock or wild animals. And finally - Wild animals - the animals NOT meant to be tamed by man. Nobody will see a pack of lions pulling a plow. (Genesis 1:24-25)
10: Finally! This is when God made humans. He put humans at the top, over everything else, but he intended for us to rule over them fairly. He didn't say to dominate them or overwhelm them, he said to rule over them. Just like a king and queen should rule fairly over their kingdom.
That's the order that things were created in, or at least, the order that someone viewing the whole thing in fast-forward would have seen.
Phantom said:
Sigh..typo's. Lots of them. Moving past that, here's what that passage says:
The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
Notice the past tense when he says the Lord God HAD made all that stuff. He's saying that God HAD made all of that stuff and now it was time for Adam to name the animals. We don't know what he named them, their name's nowadays aren't the names they had back then, but lets not get into that at the moment, this post is already getting very, very long. The point is he isn't saying God made Adam first and then the animals. There's no contradiction there.
Phantom said:
This is what it says: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
He is not saying God made them simultaneously, he's saying he made them male and female. As opposed to male and male or female and female. He's telling you their gender =/
This hurts my brain. The stretches you have to go to in order to say this...and then all the holes in your argument afterward. Ouch. These are the scriptures (that you so tidily left out):Phantom said:
Mark 1:14:After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God.
John 1:43:The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me."
John 3:22-24:After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. (This was before John was put in prison.)
Okay, John 1:43 says NOTHING about John whatsoever, so I'm just going to pretend you did not post that as a reference proving your point, considering it proves and disproves nothing. John 3:22-24 says that John was baptized in that area before he was put in prison. It doesn't mention Galilee and it doesn't say he wasn't put in prison. There is no contradiction here.
Phantom said:
This is frustrating because it picks and chooses what it means instead of actually saying what the scripture means.
Matthew 6:5-6: And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
That means that you don't pray out in public for the sole purpose of getting some personal gain out of it. Praying in public is NOT bad or against any rules of Christianity. The point is what your intent is. Is your intent to get personal gain out of it from other people, or is the point to talk to God?
1 Timothy 2:8: I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
How does this have anything to do with prayer in public being condemned or not in the bible '.'? Paul is saying that he wants people to someday be able to pray without anyone else getting mad or disputing it.
Phantom said:
This is similar to the praying thing. You are encouraged to do good works and be seen doing them, but not for personal gain. You are encouraged to do good deeds so that when people think of Christianity, they think of people who follow Christ and are honest, caring, willing to help and do good even when they don't have to. It's all about the reason why.
Phantom said:
Agh this is frustrating! You took John 3:13 out of context! Look, this is it IN CONTEXT. Jesus is speaking: "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Jesus is saying that nobody there has went up to heaven and seen heavenly things, so if he spoke of heavenly things, how could they possibly understand? They can't and won't even understand or accept earthly things.
Phantom said:
Once again used out of context. AND used with a bad translation. Here:
2 Timothy 3:16-17: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
1 Corinthians 7:6: I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. (Jesus said this, saying that God didn't command him to say this, he was choosing to, it was a gift not a command.)
1 Corinthians 7:12: To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. (Jesus is saying that he is saying this, God did not command him to say this. It's something that he has learned.)
2 Corinthians 11:16-20: I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then receive me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting. In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool. Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.
Now that it's all in context, it's very apparent that there are not inconsistencies or contradictions in any of these examples.
1. Luftballon
Banned
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didn't read through the whole thing, but: and in context, it claims elijah is the son of man. hrml.
I suspect I'm misinterpreting this thing, but, you know, humans wrote it.
Jesus is the Son of Man, and he was speaking about those people whom he was teaching to at that moment, not everyone, everywhere. Elijah was brought up to heaven, yes, but he wasn't in that crowd at that moment that Jesus said this. Jesus was saying that those people would not understand heavenly things because they have not been in heaven, none of them were ever brought up to heaven. No one but the Son of Man has been in heaven and knows what is in heaven and understands what is in heaven. He is speaking of the people alive on earth, not people who have died or ascended like Elijah, for they wouldn't be on earth anymore, would they?
Why is it so hard to accept the Bible is absolute garbage and has the credibility of a two-year-old who's just learnt their first word?
I don't care if it's being misinterpreted or mistranslated or whatever. The fact that there is dispute to begin with and it was written by humans alone proves it is not God's word; innumerable inconsistencies and contradictions only further detract from its ~sparkling qualities~. If I were to write and essay and not cite anything, it would immediately be dismissed as worthless argument. Why is the Bible so fucking special?
I don't care if it's being misinterpreted or mistranslated or whatever. The fact that there is dispute to begin with and it was written by humans alone proves it is not God's word; innumerable inconsistencies and contradictions only further detract from its ~sparkling qualities~. If I were to write and essay and not cite anything, it would immediately be dismissed as worthless argument. Why is the Bible so fucking special?
shy ♡
whispers in gay
I cannot take any of the bible seriously because, as you say, it's written by man. However - it's not told 'by god'. And that's not the atheist in me speaking. It's just translated from the torah (your old testament), and badly at that, while leaving out all the scripture that jews have written about it, interpreting it, for years and years and years, which have become just as much a part of the torah as what was translated.
Honestly - it's like watching a dubbed anime. You're not getting the real version. I mean the original is bad enough, but, well. It really isn't the 'humans wrote it' part that bugs me; it's the 'bad translation' part. Because it really, really is. Take it from someone whose family has been reading the torah and all the other jewish books (god there are so many you wouldn't believe, uhg) their entire lives and talk about it all day.
It's just sort of insulting I think. :| It's bad enough that most christians never read the bible. But they never read the original, either. Peh. Oh, and btw, the torah itself was only written by Moses, not humans in general. And it was while he was on mt. sinai while talking to god directly. Not that that actually makes it more credible but w/e.