Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

[1. Luftballon]

you quoted "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven", not "none of you have ever gone into heaven except me".

read your own text before taking it seriously.

 

[Cloudsong]

you quoted "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven", not "none of you have ever gone into heaven except me".

read your own text before taking it seriously.

I quoted what someone else stated and said why it was wrong - that being that it was taken out of context.

I cannot take any of the bible seriously because, as you say, it's written by man. However - it's not told 'by god'. And that's not the atheist in me speaking. It's just translated from the torah (your old testament), and badly at that, while leaving out all the scripture that jews have written about it, interpreting it, for years and years and years, which have become just as much a part of the torah as what was translated.

Honestly - it's like watching a dubbed anime. You're not getting the real version. I mean the original is bad enough, but, well. It really isn't the 'humans wrote it' part that bugs me; it's the 'bad translation' part. Because it really, really is. Take it from someone whose family has been reading the torah and all the other jewish books (god there are so many you wouldn't believe, uhg) their entire lives and talk about it all day.

It's just sort of insulting I think. :| It's bad enough that most christians never read the bible. But they never read the original, either. Peh. Oh, and btw, the torah itself was only written by Moses, not humans in general. And it was while he was on mt. sinai while talking to god directly. Not that that actually makes it more credible but w/e.

I do wonder why people say that a lot. Is there proof that the Torah was written before the Bible? I'm just asking, since I honestly don't know. I don't pretend to be an expert on anything, I stated my opinion and I stated facts against Phantom who was speaking of lots of inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible. Show me the contradictions and inconsistencies and I'll accept your opinion and probably even agree with you, however if you can't prove what you're saying then I'm sorry but I won't be convinced. Either way, you only spoke of the Torah and the Old Testament, not the New Testament. If the Bible is a rip-off of the Torah, where did the New Testament originate?

Why is it so hard to accept the Bible is absolute garbage and has the credibility of a two-year-old who's just learnt their first word?

I don't care if it's being misinterpreted or mistranslated or whatever. The fact that there is dispute to begin with and it was written by humans alone proves it is not God's word; innumerable inconsistencies and contradictions only further detract from its ~sparkling qualities~. If I were to write and essay and not cite anything, it would immediately be dismissed as worthless argument. Why is the Bible so fucking special?

Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not covet
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not lie/bear false witness

Hmm...I see what you mean, total and complete garbage. We should throw it all out the window and run around cursing at the top of our lungs, killing random people, stealing whatever we want, raping and cheating to our dirty little hearts' content, lying about anything and everything just 'cuz we can. Sigh..whether you believe in it or not...that doesn't make it complete garbage. For some, it's all they have to go by with what's right and wrong. Please tell me, if you think its garbage and that it's NOT "so fucking special" then tell me why. Why is it garbage, are the morals written in it wrong? Is it garbage because it's hard to understand? Shakespeare is hard to understand but many of his plays are considered classics. You don't agree with or like it, fine. But that doesn't make it garbage. The flood that happened in the bible? There is a LOT of physical evidence that proves there WAS a global flood a long time ago. I don't see how it has the "credibility of a two-year-old who's just learnt their first word"..

 

[Phantom]

First off, Phantom. I clicky-clicked the link you gave in the above post and read through it and checked your bible references (by the way, you really should include the version of the bible that you're using, since each translation is slightly different. The NIV [new international version] is the one I usually use and the one that I'm verifying in.)

I wasn't using a version, I was going from memory.

The bible is imperfect because it was written by humans to begin with. Each of them stated their accounts of what they saw and experience, naturally there will be inconsistencies due to bias, gossip, and different mindsets of the viewers. Also, nobody is claiming to be perfect.

It was aforementioned in a previous post in the thread that someone said to prove the Bible is imperfect.

Wow big mess up right here. Here's the order as it was written (do not forget that it was written by humans who were told the order by God - which means they can make mistakes writing it down. Plus, really, does it even matter what order the world was made in, we're all here now aren't we?) Okay, and please remember that many times God would give the person who would write thsi stuff down a vision, and they would write what they saw.
...
That's the order that things were created in, or at least, the order that someone viewing the whole thing in fast-forward would have seen.

I don't give a shit what the order is, does it really matter? I was simply saying the stories are different, then stating some reasons. Would you rather I quoted the entire book? I was giving a quick version, the order in which things were created has no meaning, as I was not mentioning that. I was quoting a small section, where the main difference was.

Sigh..typo's. Lots of them.

Well forgive me for typing from memory at..... *checks* 3AM.

Also, you are using a completely different Bible.

Woop dee doo da you can list the parts of Genesis in "proper" order. Shall I bake you a cookie?

This is what it says: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

He is not saying God made them simultaneously, he's saying he made them male and female. As opposed to male and male or female and female. He's telling you their gender =/

Was Eve made from Adam's rib in this version? I was mentioning the differences, not the order in which created.

This hurts my brain. The stretches you have to go to in order to say this...and then all the holes in your argument afterward. Ouch. These are the scriptures (that you so tidily left out):

I was noting the differences in text, not meaning.

Mark 1:14:After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God.
John 1:43:The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me."

One mentions that John the Baptist was imprisoned before Jesus went to Galilee, the other doesn't mention it until later.

Okay, John 1:43 says NOTHING about John whatsoever,

That's the fucking point.

This is frustrating because it picks and chooses what it means instead of actually saying what the scripture means.

No what is frustrating is that you see me as a dumbass and obviously didn't read the rest of the discussion so you are concluding that I am so.

The fact of the matter is context is variable to the reader, and what the reader decides to be important. Entire sects of Christianity have separated over one verse.

Now that it's all in context, it's very apparent that there are not inconsistencies or contradictions in any of these examples.

Who are you to say it is in context or not? Are you the author?


Yes, every one works when it is separate and alone, but the inconsistencies are there, between different books. You cannot deny that they are there. Maybe to you my previous examples were not good enough.

Mine were few, and they were ones I found, how about 700?

 

[ultraviolet]

We should throw it all out the window and run around cursing at the top of our lungs, killing random people, stealing whatever we want, raping and cheating to our dirty little hearts' content, lying about anything and everything just 'cuz we can.

Excuse me? I was raised without religion like a lot of other people and I also think the bible is questionable; this doesn't mean I lack morals. The Bible, or any religion is not a universal moral code and people often do just fine without it. Murder/stealing/etc should be things you don't do because they hurt other people, not because your religion tells you. I find it incredibly insulting that you're introducing this dichotomy that you either agree with the bible and its teachings or you're immoral and don't know the difference between right and wrong.

For some, it's all they have to go by with what's right and wrong.

this is not a good thing! people should know what right and wrong is, not just follow them because they're worried about going to hell. I don't murder people because I know it's a horrible thing to do; not because I'm afraid of what God will think of me or because I'll go to Hell.

Also, this is a huge strawman; it is pretty obvious that Vixie is against murder/stealing/etc. way to completely miss the point that she's making:

The fact that there is dispute to begin with and it was written by humans alone proves it is not God's word

... how can you devote your life to a religion if the only material you have to live by is certain to be inaccurate? You don't even know how inaccurate it is, do you?

The flood that happened in the bible? There is a LOT of physical evidence that proves there WAS a global flood a long time ago.

can you source this? because I'm fairly sure there's a lot of evidence against it, too.

 

[Phantom]

EDIT: I went and got majorly post-ninja'd

Is there proof that the Torah was written before the Bible?

Yes, it's called Judaism.

Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not covet
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not lie/bear false witness

.... I do believe you are missing a few. Nice how you picked them. out of context

1. I am the LORD your God you shall have none before me.
2.You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6 You shall not murder.
7 You shall not commit adultery.
8 You shall not steal.
9 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

Oooo look I can make a list too.

It was never said that religion was immoral in it's beliefs. Or at least I never said it. But those are just as much basic social laws as they are "religious law". It is crude and impolite for you say that non-believers are immoral.

There is a LOT of physical evidence that proves there WAS a global flood a long time ago.

Like UV said, what physical evidence? If there is, who is to say it was anything like the Bible said, what proof is there that it was a flood of "Biblical proportions"?

 

[Cloudsong]

I'm pretty much done arguing this, it'll only make lots of people mad at me and I just wanted to get my opinion out there. But there are a few things that..yeah...I gotta reply to.

Was Eve made from Adam's rib in this version?

Yes(:

I was noting the differences in text

Difference in text. Hmm. Possibly because, y'know, each of those books in the bible was written by a different person who had a different point of view and noticed different things ^.^

That's the fucking point.

I didn't cuss when I was countering your points =/ This IS a place where you can debate this shtuff, isn't it? If you don't want people arguing with you then why post here at all '.'? If it bothers you that bad, I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to make it sound like I had any disrespect or bad image of you or anything, nor was I trying to make you sound stupid or anything like that. In fact, I had no opinion of you whatsoever, I don't even know you(:

No what is frustrating is that you see me as a dumbass and obviously didn't read the rest of the discussion so you are concluding that I am so.

I concluded nothing, did read the rest of the discussion and did not see you as anything ^.^ I simply countered the points that YOU made. Which was all about how the bible was full of contradictions.

Who are you to say it is in context or not?

Um...I used the definition of context as of dictionary.reference.com(:
"the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect"
If you don't believe me clicky here ^.^

Mine were few, and they were ones I found, how about 700?

If I was able to, hypothetically, disprove each and every one of those, would you believe me? I don't know about you, but many people wouldn't because they've decided what they do and do not believe and even if you give them irrefutable evidence that they're wrong and you're right, they still won't accept it. Including me. People are very stubborn(:

Ooh and finally:

Shall I bake you a cookie?

Yes, please x3

 

[Phantom]

Was Eve made from Adam's rib in this version?

Yes(:

Better read that again, in one version Eve is made from the rib of Adam, in another they are made as equals, not one coming before the other.

A contradiction.

We should throw it all out the window and run around cursing at the top of our lungs, killing random people, stealing whatever we want, raping and cheating to our dirty little hearts' content, lying about anything and everything just 'cuz we can.

I consider this an insult. For this same reason I have been removed from family events... My family has brought priests in to "save my immortal soul". They even have considered me to be possessed and when I was in high school I was forbidden from seeing one of my friends because they were pagan. You must understand then if you read the entirety of the thread, and read some of my coughing cupboard posts, that my family does not approve of my atheism, and I have been shunned from the family indefinately. My own mother hates me for my beliefs... or my lack of beliefs. People who believe like that. They made my own mother hate me. I am not immoral, I work as a EMT. I save lives for a living, I've worked with the homeless, I worked in a memory unit in a nursing home for three years... I see what this "god" has bestowed upon his people, is that moral?

 

[Aobaru]

I don't pretend to be an expert on anything, I stated my opinion and I stated facts against Phantom who was speaking of lots of inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible. Show me the contradictions and inconsistencies and I'll accept your opinion and probably even agree with you, however if you can't prove what you're saying then I'm sorry but I won't be convinced.

A logical Christian. Finally, someone we can debate with intelligently.

Better read that again, in one version Eve is made from the rib of Adam, in another they are made as equals, not one coming before the other.

A contradiction.

Genesis 1:27, So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

One could argue either way with this one: that they were created simultaneously, or that the verse is simply specifying what had been created (i.e., male and female, as opposed to male and butterfly).

I see what you mean, total and complete garbage. We should throw it all out the window and run around cursing at the top of our lungs, killing random people, stealing whatever we want, raping and cheating to our dirty little hearts' content, lying about anything and everything just 'cuz we can.

It is just stupid to assume that the Bible is the source of all morality on Earth. However, if you were trying to say that since we consider the Bible "garbage", we consider the morals contained therein garbage as well, you'd be wrong; the problem is that the morals contained in the Bible aren't exclusively biblical.

 

[Phantom]

One could argue either way with this one: that they were created simultaneously, or that the verse is simply specifying what had been created (i.e., male and female, as opposed to male and butterfly).

Exactly, I argue because in the other version one specifically comes before the other.

 

[Harlequin]

Can I just mention that you said (and I'm paraphrasing) that people would like to obscure evidence that proves them wrong? Um. I think that is completely untrue. If there is something in the Bible that refutes a particular belief of mine (and can provide the evidence to back it up) I would be a) surprised but b) interested. When something proves me wrong I like to know why I'm wrong and where I went wrong and how to no longer be wrong.

It's a very religious point of view to assume that something that contradicts your belief is evil and must be hidden.

 

[Adriane]

I'm pretty sure I have morals (re: murdering, stealing, etc.) and I am very atheist. I did not need the Bible to tell me these things are wrong. I'm an empathetic human being. I feel for other people and I have feelings of my own.

But to think morals and guidelines for society rely on religion--Christianity in particular--is untrue, insulting, and irritating.

 

[Butterfree]

Honestly, I'm an atheist and I think most lists of Biblical contradictions I've seen have many entries, usually about half of the list at least, that are blatantly just splitting hairs. One version has Adam explicitly created before Eve whereas the other just says "he created a man and a woman"? Oh, come on; the latter doesn't preclude the former in any way! That's not a contradiction; it's a difference in emphasis. All of SkyAngel's counters, at a very quick read, made perfect sense to me, and what the hell would "being in context" mean if not "taken as part of a larger passage as opposed to a single blanket statement"?

That said, however, even if the Bible contained no contradictions whatsoever, this would not be proof that it is to be regarded as anything more special than any other book of ancient mythology. Most books don't blatantly contradict themselves, and the fact remains that there is nothing to single the Bible out as being divinely inspired out of all the books in the world.

SkyAngel, "the Bible is garbage" does not mean "everything to be found in the Bible is garbage by association with it". Just because you put something that's good or true into a book doesn't mean the book as a whole isn't junk. The Bible isn't the only thing that tells us not to steal and lie and murder; those are general laws of a civilized society that happen to also be in the Bible. Good people knew not to rape and steal and murder before the Bible came along and will continue to know it regardless of what happens to the Bible. Even if we hypothetically were to accept that some people only know it's wrong because of the Bible, that doesn't justify the entire Bible; it justifies the existence of those particular passages.

In fact, if somebody draws their entire code of morality from the Bible, please don't let them at any other part of the Bible, or they will get to the... more dated parts.

 

[Phantom]

In fact, if somebody draws their entire code of morality from the Bible, please don't let them at any other part of the Bible, or they will get to the... more dated parts.

That would be scary.

 

[Aobaru]

In fact, if somebody draws their entire code of morality from the Bible, please don't let them at any other part of the Bible, or they will get to the... more dated parts.

It's wrong to murder... as long as the people worship the same god as you:

You shall not murder.

Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

 

[Pwnemon]

murder =/= kill or the military would be effed. Murder = intentionally killing in cold blood.

 

[Aobaru]

murder =/= kill or the military would be effed. Murder = intentionally killing in cold blood.

You just defined murder as exactly what the passage described. How is killing (murdering) "all the boys" and "every woman who has slept with a man" not in cold blood? And I don't think you can equate with the military here, since as I recall the (modern) military doesn't save for themselves "every girl who has never slept with a man."

 

[opaltiger]

There is absolutely no way in which you can interpret the order of events in Genesis that makes sense. Even if you grant concessions for all the other points, the Earth before the stars would be a pretty difficult one to get wrong, and it is utterly and completely inaccurate.

And please don't go on about physical evidence of the Great Flood. Yes, there is evidence that extensive flooding occurred in that general area at around the right time. That is not the same as "the entire Earth was covered in water several kilometres deep", which is what the story requires if we accept Mt. Ararat as the final resting place of the ark. There isn't enough water on Earth for that to have happened.

 

[Vladimir Putin's LJ]

murder =/= kill or the military would be effed. Murder = intentionally killing in cold blood.

To be honest I've never really understood why murdering someone in civillian life makes you a criminal and murdering someone while in the army makes you a hero.

 

[Harlequin]

Killing someone as a soldier is still murder, it's just that you have a get out of jail free card. It's state-sanctioned murder.

 

[Tarvos]

If you're killing for the military, aren't you intentionally killing in cold blood?