Theism, Religion and Lack thereof

[Eloi]

I accept your apologies and offer my own if you feel that I overreacted, as I have been known to do.

There are a few things that really set me off and accusations of ignorance, whether accidental or deliberate, explicit or implicit, is one of them. I know I definitely flew off the handle with the first post I wrote; I just hope I didn't go too far with the second. As an overly-literal-minded person, I find it hard to tell when I've overstepped emotional boundaries.

You didn't overreact at all, if I felt I was slighted I probably wouldn't have been so mature. Thank you for accepting my apologies. :)

I understand now what you meant but I think in future you should take me off the pedestal you apparently have me on and apply Occam's razor; it assumes less of me to just think that I'm shit at statistics (which I am) than to think I'm capable of understanding anything but that I subconsciously refuse to learn things that challenge my position.

I will try to shave my fallacies with that razor in the future. I am shit at statistics as well, so I don't think should've been that great of a leap for me, I'll try to be more rational about these things.

Flattered as I am, I wouldn't recommend looking up to me. All you'll see is a fat guy with a pathological need for approval and fear of rejection.

But you pull it off so much better than I do. ^.^;

Anyway, onto the meat of the debate.

To expound on the oft-mentioned "personal reasons": The personal reason I believe what Jesus says is because I believe my mother and boyfriend. My mother claims to be a psychic, and has the ability to perceive paranormal things and information, with multiple demonstrations to that, and claims Jesus' view of reality matches her own. She also has multiple pain diseases. The only way I can believe she is in pain everyday is to believe her subjective view of reality. And just accepting the pain disease portion and not the paranormal portion, even tho' she states both are true, would not make much sense to me. My boyfriend also claims similarly, with a similar amount of demonstration and claims Jesus' view of reality matches his own. He also is transsexual. The only way I believe he feels that his female role expected of him and being in a female body seriously disturbs him is to believe his subjective view of reality. And just accepting the transsexual portion, and not the paranormal portion, even if he claims both are equally true, would also not make sense to me.

 

[opaltiger]

If someone says "the sky is blue" 2000 years ago, does someone who says "the sky is blue" today have more credibility?

Yes. This is because, at some point in the past, the sky was a different colour, so naturally we would favour contemporary to historical evidence. Indeed, even if we didn't know the sky had been a different colour, the possibility would remain, so we'd still prefer current observations. Obviously in 2000 years the colour hasn't changed, but we aren't talking about the sky, we are talking about society, and society can and has changed very much in those 2000 years.

 

[Teh Ebil Snorlax]

To expound on the oft-mentioned "personal reasons": The personal reason I believe what Jesus says is because I believe my mother and boyfriend. My mother claims to be a psychic, and has the ability to perceive paranormal things and information, with multiple demonstrations to that, and claims Jesus' view of reality matches her own. She also has multiple pain diseases. The only way I can believe she is in pain everyday is to believe her subjective view of reality. And just accepting the pain disease portion and not the paranormal portion, even tho' she states both are true, would not make much sense to me. My boyfriend also claims similarly, with a similar amount of demonstration and claims Jesus' view of reality matches his own. He also is transsexual. The only way I believe he feels that his female role expected of him and being in a female body seriously disturbs him is to believe his subjective view of reality. And just accepting the transsexual portion, and not the paranormal portion, even if he claims both are equally true, would also not make sense to me.

Taking the statements on their own, I can see your logic, but only if you take the statements on their own. If you put the statements into the context of scientific knowledge, then the multiple pain diseases and transexuality are considerably more likely to be true than any claim that presupposes that the physical laws on which our world is built do not hold true.

 

[Music Dragon]

If Jesus claiming to know God exists is weak evidence that God does in fact exist, then I fail to see why the "God is dark matter" guy claiming to know that God is dark matter is not evidence that God is in fact dark matter. Wouldn't he be likelier to make that claim if it were true?

And, perhaps more importantly, is the one significantly more likely to be right than the other enough to justify his mocking of the other's ludicrous ideas?

 

[Pwnemon]

Well, MD, going by the statement, "I think God is dark matter," he doesn't have any of the things giving Jesus Bayesian evidence. Namely, "I met God," and "God sent me to tell you," and "I am God's son."

 

[Music Dragon]

Well, MD, going by the statement, "I think God is dark matter," he doesn't have any of the things giving Jesus Bayesian evidence. Namely, "I met God," and "God sent me to tell you," and "I am God's son."

So if he had claimed those three things as well, he would have have been more believable?

 

[Pwnemon]

If he claimed that god sent him to tell the world that he was dark matter, then yes, that would be Bayesian evidence in his favor.

 

[Music Dragon]

... Well, that was anticlimactic.

 

[Inept At Normal]

STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

*ahem*

ERRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!

So. A while ago, I officially came out as an athiest to my father (an Evangelical Glenn Beck watcher with opinions like sieves). He took it surpisingly well, as narrowminded as he's proven himself to be in the past. In fact, he hasn't mentioned it since then.

So, tonight, he tells me that we're staying late at church tommorow.

At first, I didn't get what he was saying. Did he not understand when I said very clearly "Dad, you have a right to your religion, and I have a right to my lack of one"? I voiced this question.

"You're going because I say so." No, seriously. These were the words directly out of his mouth.

I got very snippy (we had in fact just got done arguing about whether or not my father is justified to go out and shoot people that sinned, Boondock Saints style). "Faires created the universe. Why? Because I said so."

Immidietly, he got very angry and started to yell. "Don't mock beliefs! I'll beat you if I have to!" I assured him, that no, I wasn't mocking his beliefs, I was pointing out his unfounded method of reasoning. It went on ("you live in my house and under my rules, God gave you free will to believe what you believe but you're still sitting with me, it's not doing you any harm",).

I tell him that fine, I will go. But then I will start showing his gigglebiblefriends what I'm made of. He smirks and tells me that I'm being like my aunt (who is a very liberal, speak your mind type of athiest, although I made up my mind about my lack of religion before I even knew about this) as if this is an insult.

Now we're at a stalemate. Advice? Consolation?

(Yes, I know that this is my first post out of the introductions thread. Expect to see a lot of me here.)

 

[#1 bro]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Who cares dude? Just go to church a bit longer, don't be a punk-ass brat about it

Helpful hint: You don't need to "come out" as an atheist the same way you need to come out as gay. You can just... not believe in god.

 

[Aobaru]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Who cares dude? Just go to church a bit longer, don't be a punk-ass brat about it

Hello and welcome to the Forums, Inept At Normal. I'd like to go ahead and apologize for my fellow member's advice here. You might infer from his idiotic statement that somehow we are all like him, but I'm here to tell you this is not the case.

I'm in a similar situation in that I "came out" as an atheist as well to my parents. My mom's response was that she wished she would have forced me to go to church (as if that would have helped). She reacted similarly to my bisexuality, and she is now in denial about both.

The only advice I could give you is to stay strong in your belief (or non-belief as it were) and don't give in. I'm sure he'll give up soon enough.

 

[Tarvos]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Who cares dude? Just go to church a bit longer, don't be a punk-ass brat about it

Helpful hint: You don't need to "come out" as an atheist the same way you need to come out as gay. You can just... not believe in god.

Zeta this is exactly the opposite of what we need. we need atheists to come out as gay and fight for their rights because in the US they are routinely discriminated

 

[Inept At Normal]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Who cares dude? Just go to church a bit longer, don't be a punk-ass brat about it

Helpful hint: You don't need to "come out" as an atheist the same way you need to come out as gay. You can just... not believe in god.

Well, I can understand what you mean. But is it really moral to keep those beliefs you hold dearest to yourself unsiad to others. I mean sure, if ou don't speak your mind, you'll never get into any arguments ever in your life. But if you speak what you believe, your sure as hell going to get opposition, but you're generally bettering the world. I appreciate you saying that though; it's kind of humbling to look at it from that angle.

(Yes, I know I just shot myself in the foot there. Don't stay in the kitchen if you can't take the heat, all that jazz.)

The only advice I could give you is to stay strong in your belief (or non-belief as it were) and don't give in. I'm sure he'll give up soon enough.

Well, uh. Thanks. I appreciate it. I must say that you yourself must be a very strong individual yourself. If it means anything, (which it probably doesn't), I hope everything works out well with your mom. How does your dad feel about it? Has he provided any support? I sincerely hope you come out unscathed through this.

When I wrote this thread, I was sort of freaking out about it, and in retrospect I do seem sort of brattish about it. But still, I'm happy that I wrote it. It's exactly why I chose this forum - to see the views of different people.

 

[Aobaru]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Helpful hint: You don't need to "come out" as an atheist the same way you need to come out as gay. You can just... not believe in god.

While this may be true in theory, society's prejudices against atheists pretty much require that you be either "open" about it (and thus face discrimination) or "in the closet" (and feel shitty about hiding who you are).

Well, uh. Thanks. I appreciate it. I must say that you yourself must be a very strong individual yourself. If it means anything, (which it probably doesn't), I hope everything works out well with your mom. How does your dad feel about it? Has he provided any support? I sincerely hope you come out unscathed through this.

Yeah, my situation isn't the best example XD My dad is pretty much in denial as well, although what he thinks really doesn't mean anything to me. He already lost my respect a couple years back for something else (I won't get into it; this is your thread). Anyway, there are only a handful of people supporting me right now: my sister, best friend, and three of my cousins.

When I wrote this thread, I was sort of freaking out about it, and in retrospect I do seem sort of brattish about it.

Don't ever think that sticking to your beliefs is brattish.

 

[Inept At Normal]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Yeah, my situation isn't the best example XD My dad is pretty much in denial as well, although what he thinks really doesn't mean anything to me. He already lost my respect a couple years back for something else (I won't get into it; this is your thread). Anyway, there are only a handful of people supporting me right now: my sister, best friend, and three of my cousins.

For all it's worth, we online support you too. I know it isn't helpful or anything, but we're here if you need to unload.

We got in a discusion in the truck again. He said that he's making me go because he believes it's best for me. It's infuriating, but he's legitamitly trying to help me and I don't know how to argue this with him. (It later progressed into some yelling and you believe humans are monkeys and you're really stupid, but I digress.)

See, he's not going to convince me of anything. He's just going to make me more bitter towards Christianity (brainwashed Sunday Schoolers, homophobic pastors, and pictures of crying fetuses on the wall is hardly something that will encourage me). But he thinks he's doing something right. It's just so grr-y.

 

[Tarvos]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Humans share a common ancestor with monkeys.

/inbeforeopaldetectsthis

In any case, sticking up for your beliefs and getting into arguments routinely are two different things. But you do need to come out. If your parents really love you, they'll support you as a person (though not necessarily agree with your beliefs or ideas).

 

[Inept At Normal]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

Humans share a common ancestor with monkeys.

And also with manatees, correct? Humans are definitly special if we share a common ancester with manatees. *nodnod*

Anyway. I'm not sure I know what you mean. If you stick up for your beliefs, aren't you saying you believe them and saying why? I mean, I guess you could ignore everyone elses claims after you say that, but that isn't doing your belief any justice.

And ohmygod, your avatar is scary. I'm gonna remember you.

 

[Zuu]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

we share an ancestor with everything.

 

[opaltiger]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

we share an ancestor with everything.

Probably.

 

[Automata heart]

Re: STUPID, BIGOTED EVANGELICAL FATHER!

well, take a video game, or something, or, if your really feeling spitefull, laugh all the way though the service. i would say just go, no need to make someone dislike you. take a book or something.