Gun Control

[Minnow]

So, is it: "If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns."?

Or is it: "You'll shoot your eye out!"?

Fairly well-rounded issue. Good for debate, I think.

Applicable to the U.S.--where people seem to get the most butthurt about it--and elsewhere.

What do you think?

 

[Saith]

Just, you know, to get the debate off to an entertaining start. : 3

 

[shy ♡]

I think the problem is that the two sides appear to be too black and white. You either love guns or you hate them; if you love 'em you want everyone to have 'em, if you hate 'em no one can have them and anyone who does have them is insane!

Personally, I know many people who have guns, and you need a license to carry each one. And, really, I see nothing wrong with that, and that is how it should be in the US. I would love to own a gun because I love them. But I would want it to be licensed. And getting a license should be a bit more difficult than it is in the US. :v

(also Hoity Toity that link made me squee cause they were in TWW :D)

 

[Saith]

I'm not really into guns that much, but half of my family are basically the Welsh equivalent of rednecks (sans the inbreeding* and Christianity), so they live on a farm, own guns, shoot squirrels etc.

I'd just like to point at Switzerland, where everybody can kill everybody. And they don't.
Then again, they have compulsory military service there or something, so maybe that's why~


*oh racism!

edit: Also I have no idea what TWW is! :D I just know them because they're bloody amazing magicians.

 

[Music Dragon]

I'm fairly sure the US has more gun violence than any other developed country in the world. Doesn't that speak for itself?

 

[Aobaru]

The fact is gun bans do nothing to keep guns out of the hands of the "bad guys", they only take away from normal people their right to defend themselves. Gun bans have jack shit effect on criminals; they ignore bans on murder and theft, why should they follow bans on guns? Plus, background checks prevent felons from procuring weapons legally; the only thing gun bans hurt is legal gun ownership by law-abiding citizens. Criminals get their guns illegally, and no gun ban is going to stop them.

 

[Adriane]

The fact is gun bans do nothing to keep guns out of the hands of the "bad guys", they only take away from normal people their right to defend themselves. Gun bans have jack shit effect on criminals; they ignore bans on murder and theft, why should they follow bans on guns? Plus, background checks prevent felons from procuring weapons legally; the only thing gun bans hurt is legal gun ownership by law-abiding citizens. Criminals get their guns illegally, and no gun ban is going to stop them.

Not every crime involves somebody actually getting shot or using an illegal gun. It will be harder to obtain a gun. Most violent crimes in the UK involve knives, not guns.

 

[Aobaru]

Most violent crimes in the UK involve knives, not guns.

BAN THE KNIVES!

It will be harder to obtain a gun.

Yes, and a black market will be created, just like there's one now for illegal drugs. (Incidentally, illegal guns and illegal drugs go together really well; if they were both legalized, a lot of criminals would be out of a job!) And let's not forget the safe illegal abortions performed before they were legalized.

 

[Tailsy]

Banning knives is not an option - it's awfully difficult to restrict the sale of culinary utensils, for some reason! Knife crime is completely different from gun crime - a gun's only use is to harm. What else are you going to do with it? I personally find guns frightening, and I live in *Scotland*.

Scotland has the highest rate of knife crime in the Western world. It also has the highest rate of drug-related crime in the world (the USA is third, by the way). But you know what isn't a problem? Gun crime. Funny that. (Also I believe that many Scottish people would consider using a handgun to kill a person very cowardly, moreso than using a knife. Probably a cultural issue there, but it's very interesting.)

I would, however, hypothesise that if the USA restricted the sale of handguns in the same way the UK has, a lot of problems would arise from it. The US is pretty used to most people having firearms in the way that the UK and several European countries haven't, and I'm pretty sure it would be difficult to work around in a way that would make people happy.

 

[Butterfree]

The fact is gun bans do nothing to keep guns out of the hands of the "bad guys", they only take away from normal people their right to defend themselves. Gun bans have jack shit effect on criminals; they ignore bans on murder and theft, why should they follow bans on guns? Plus, background checks prevent felons from procuring weapons legally; the only thing gun bans hurt is legal gun ownership by law-abiding citizens. Criminals get their guns illegally, and no gun ban is going to stop them.

And yet, in countries where guns are actually outlawed, criminals for some reason aren't running around killing everyone with illegally procured firearms.

I also can't help wondering just how much the possibility other citizens also have guns actually deters or hinders criminals. How often does a situation where owning a gun actually saves a citizen come up? How often does somebody get attacked while within reach of their gun, with the presence of mind to use it and the skill to do so before the criminal shoots them? More often than the situation in which kids open a drawer and find a gun and shoot each other?

 

[surskitty]

Yes, and a black market will be created, just like there's one now for illegal drugs. (Incidentally, illegal guns and illegal drugs go together really well; if they were both legalized, a lot of criminals would be out of a job!) And let's not forget the safe illegal abortions performed before they were legalized.

I'm pretty sure a lot of criminals would be out of a job if just drugs were legalised. Not sure how illegal guns factor into that.

Okay, I can totally get the reasoning behind there then being a black market for guns. But. Ammo is expensive even in places where guns are legal and is also consumable. If I recall something I read correctly, most of the gun crime in the UK? Isn't that effective! While some people have guns, it's a hell of a lot harder to keep getting ammo, so people try doing things like reusing spent cases.


The problem with gun control laws in the US is that you really would need whatever happens to happen on a federal level. DC's handgun law wasn't particularly effective because Virginia's gun control laws are ... incredibly lax, to say the least. So it's very simple for people to just buy guns in Virginia and bring them into DC, particularly since it's not as though it'd be even remotely plausible to search people as they come into DC to make sure they're not bringing handguns.

 

[ultraviolet]

Yes, and a black market will be created, just like there's one now for illegal drugs.

does that actually happen? Because here in Aus it's pretty hard to get a gun because you a) need a license to legally own one (and there are regular searches in areas that generally have a lot of crime) and b) they're really, really difficult and expensive to buy. There are few shops that sell guns or even large knives here. I only know two people who own guns, and they're farmers who actually need them.

Also the drug black market here is much, much more of a problem here than guns ever have been. :/

 

[Karkat Vantas]

What I can't understand is why anybody would need a gun with... any power. At all. If you want a gun for self-defense, okay, but I don't think you need a fucking Uzi for that.

 

[Crazy Linoone]

BAN THE KNIVES!

The problem is that it's a lot harder to kill someone with a knife than with a gun. People regularly shoot themselves with guns, accidentally or otherwise, but it's a lot harder to accidentally stab yourself with knife hard enough to kill yourself (or someone else, for that matter!). Knives also don't allow for long-range killing, unless you're a trained ninja or something, while any five-year-old can kill someone with a loaded gun. Also, it's a lot easier to kill or at least hurt more people with a gun. A person with a gun can mow down anyone while he or she still has ammo, while a person's effective target when he or she has a knife is whoever is reach. This means that innocent bystanders trying to escape can actually do so instead of getting killed with a bullet to the back.

Yes, and a black market will be created, just like there's one now for illegal drugs. (Incidentally, illegal guns and illegal drugs go together really well; if they were both legalized, a lot of criminals would be out of a job!) And let's not forget the safe illegal abortions performed before they were legalized.

Yes, a black market will be created. But that doesn't stop the fact that it will be a lot more expensive and harder for criminals to get guns. It will also make it almost impossible for a normal person with no criminal connections to get a gun, and since quite a few of gun-related shootings are caused by people without criminal connections.


I don't think guns should be banned completely -- some people in, say, Alaska, actually need them to survive -- but a stricter gun law should definitely be imposed. It's a better idea than giving everybody guns and letting them fend for themselves, since then people won't accidentally kill themselves or other people, which happens ridiculously often.

 

[Aobaru]

And yet, in countries where guns are actually outlawed, criminals for some reason aren't running around killing everyone with illegally procured firearms.

What countries are you referring to?

I also can't help wondering just how much the possibility other citizens also have guns actually deters or hinders criminals. How often does a situation where owning a gun actually saves a citizen come up? How often does somebody get attacked while within reach of their gun, with the presence of mind to use it and the skill to do so before the criminal shoots them? More often than the situation in which kids open a drawer and find a gun and shoot each other?

I don't have any statistics on gun ownership vs. gun usefulness. However, if a situation were to arise, I would rather have the off-chance of having my gun with me and being able to use it than not having one at all.

"In 2000, 174 children (0-18) in the United States died from unintentional firearm-related injuries." link

I'm pretty sure a lot of criminals would be out of a job if just drugs were legalised. Not sure how illegal guns factor into that.

Sorry, I was just typing my thoughts there. Pay no attention.

The problem is that it's a lot harder to kill someone with a knife than with a gun.

Hypothetically, if a place existed where the knife homicide rate was extremely higher than the gun homicide rate (I have no idea if this exists), would you then support knife control?

Yes, a black market will be created. But that doesn't stop the fact that it will be a lot more expensive and harder for criminals to get guns. It will also make it almost impossible for a normal person with no criminal connections to get a gun, and since quite a few of gun-related shootings are caused by people without criminal connections.

But criminals with a suspect background can't get guns legally anyway! They get their weapons like they do everything else: illegally. They're going to have guns no matter what. So you have to choose the better scenario: (1) armed criminals and an unarmed populace, or (2) armed criminals and an armed populace.

Also, you can't blame guns for what psychos choose to do with them. They could have easily constructed a bomb, or bought a crossbow, or released poisonous gas. The desire to harm other people is there anyway, so unless you ban every object capable of inflicting harm upon another human being, there's nothing you can do but choose to defend yourself.

 

[Aletheia]

Gun bans really do nothing to stop gun-related crimes. They do, however, make it illegal for citizens to defend themselves with firearms. Actually, illegalizing anything dangerous makes it more profitable, if anything. Just look at the Eighteenth Amendment (of the Amerikan Constitution).
(that is also why legalizing drugs is not quite as insane as it sounds)

And besides, you can still hurt people without guns. Heck, you can kill people with pretty much anything.

 

[Adriane]

What countries are you referring to?

Pretty much most of Europe?

I don't have any statistics on gun ownership vs. gun usefulness. However, if a situation were to arise, I would rather have the off-chance of having my gun with me and being able to use it than not having one at all.

The irony here is that you live in South Carolina, which has rather lax firearm control laws. If you lived somewhere where guns were banned, the probability of that off-chance would plummet astronomically. In other words, you're saying the solution to gun crime is more guns.

Hypothetically, if a place existed where the knife homicide rate was extremely higher than the gun homicide rate (I have no idea if this exists), would you then support knife control?

This is still all of Europe pretty much; also it's a slippery slope. Knives have uses apart from killing things; echoing what Tailsy mentioned.

But criminals with a suspect background can't get guns legally anyway!

There's always a first time? If you're saying this black market already exists, then there wouldn't be any harm in further restricting the access of guns to people who would actually use them.

Also, you can't blame guns for what psychos choose to do with them.

Guns are designed to kill things. What else do you do with a gun?

Gun bans really do nothing to stop gun-related crimes.

And how do you intend to back up this claim?

They do, however, make it illegal for citizens to defend themselves with firearms.

I'm sure everyone will feel so much better when every random person on the street is walking around with a gun.

Actually, illegalizing anything dangerous makes it more profitable, if anything. Just look at the Eighteenth Amendment (of the Amerikan Constitution).
(that is also why legalizing drugs is not quite as insane as it sounds)

Nobody's claiming legalising drugs is insane. What are you trying to say?

And besides, you can still hurt people without guns. Heck, you can kill people with pretty much anything.

Well, yeah...? That's totally besides the point.

 

[Tailsy]

Hypothetically, if a place existed where the knife homicide rate was extremely higher than the gun homicide rate (I have no idea if this exists), would you then support knife control?

... Did you even read my post? I stated that my *own country* has an astronomical knife crime rate and almost no gun crime at all. I support what laws are currently in place - you can be jailed for up to five years here for possessing a concealed (or not-concealed) knife in public with intent to harm. 'Intent to harm' also applies to people who carry knives for 'self-defence'. I support sensible levels of knife control.

Also, you can't blame guns for what psychos choose to do with them. They could have easily constructed a bomb, or bought a crossbow, or released poisonous gas. The desire to harm other people is there anyway, so unless you ban every object capable of inflicting harm upon another human being, there's nothing you can do but choose to defend yourself.

So your message is 'protect yourself from being shot!' rather than 'don't shoot people'? What a healthy worldview that is.

 

[opaltiger]

Also, you can't blame guns for what psychos choose to do with them. They could have easily constructed a bomb, or bought a crossbow, or released poisonous gas.

... yes, because clearly all criminals are armed with the expertise necessary to build bombs. There is always something else you can use to kill people. Guns just happen to be incredibly convenient! Which is why banning them would be good.

Also, are you suggesting only 'psychos' kill people with guns?

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, Aobaru, did you know most European police forces aren't armed with firearms?

 

[Music Dragon]

It is incredibly naive to assume that the world consists only of evil people who completely ignore the law, and good people who abide by it.