Gym Leader Choice Pokémafia 2 - Game Thread

[rari_teh]

I didn't, Koko. Or I started to but then had to do something irl. Basically, was looking at some of Tofu's interactions (hindsight is nice) and saw Mr UC more or less following Tofu's lead when claiming but then got a bit derailed. Basically:

Tofu: I want to claim bc my role isn't very useful but won't yet bc no one else has
UC: oh yeah mine isn't useful either but claiming may expose powerful roles to maf
Tofu: aight I'll claim anyway bc wynaut *proceeds to claim*
UC:ok, sure, I'll claim too *proceeds to claim as well*
RNP: where's Stryke?
UC: oh yeah, might be a good idea to vote inactives
VM: my my, UC is very eager to vote *proceeds to be sus of UC*

And then I had to go and as you can see my mind wandered from Tofu interactions to UC interactions and I'm unsure if any of it is AI bc UC may just be a bit oblivious/trusting or outgroup trying to signal to the ingroup *shrug*

Agree with the time extension btw

tbh this is very on-brand for v!ultracool imo

 

[Bluwiikoon]

I'm nervous about the possibility of ever yeeting Stryke because his powers could very well be something alieny It all seems a bit sus!

 

[rari_teh]

i still think stryke is that one weird old mfia role that zm randed years ago, in which he’s a VT who gets reborn as a serial killer with oneshot killproof upon being lynched

by which i mean i don’t want to kill stryke ever

 

[Negrek]

Ehh, I didn't want to say anything quite yet, but I don't want this counterwagon to go too far and waste time/effort. I inspected Mawile N0 and he flipped Town.

 

[Bluwiikoon]

Ehh, I didn't want to say anything quite yet, but I don't want this counterwagon to go too far and waste time/effort. I inspected Mawile N0 and he flipped Town.

I feel like wolf!Negrek wouldn't offer this up Not unless they're w/w

 

[Stryke]

If we're having trouble coming up with wagons, I volunteer as tribute

i thought we weren't voting you off because then you get your powers

Tee-hee :^)

 

[JackPK]

@JackPK Do your targets have to be living players, or could you swap badges between a dead player and a living player?

Oh, good idea that I hadn't thought of! My role PM just says "two targets" and doesn't specify. I'm asking MF now.

"living players only" she says

-----

@kokorico Unless I have overlooked putting something down on my spreadsheet, you haven't made any roleclaim or obvious hint yet. Given that you're the most prominent wagon so far today, is there anything you can share to persuade us otherwise and/or that would be helpful after you're yeeted?

I'm bogged down at work a bit at the moment but later tonight I will do some ISOing and decide where I want to place my vote for now. Koko has been blank enough that I don't really have a mental read on em yet and I want to remind myself of what e's said, and there are also one or two other folks I have a gut reaction of suspicion toward whom I want to check out again to see if there's anything there to support my gut before I point any fingers.

 

[JackPK]

is there anything you can share to persuade us otherwise

er, *persuade us not to yeet you, rather. rephrased the first sentence and forgot to correspondingly rephrase the second to fit

 

[rari_teh]

@kokorico Unless I have overlooked putting something down on my spreadsheet, you haven't made any roleclaim or obvious hint yet. Given that you're the most prominent wagon so far today, is there anything you can share to persuade us otherwise and/or that would be helpful after you're yeeted?

i… don’t know if this is wise, considering koko only has one vote
e’s only the most prominent wagon because the counterwagon, which also has a single vote, has just been confirmed to have a greencheck

 

[Ys_]

Koko

 

[Ys_]

Koko seems to try to be grasping at straws tbh. E tried to twist my words too :P unless both Stryke and I were lying lmao. Plus it did seem weird that no one moved to Koko after both rari and vm did. Seems like e could have been a good counter-wagon but everyone else seemed uncoordinated.

 

[Negrek]

Well, from my perspective there's probably 3-4 more non-Town players in some combination of Mafia and 3p. Stryke also appears to be something non-Town, or if Town now not likely to stay that way after dying. We might have to do something about him eventually if he's explicitly anti-town and we therefore need him to die to win, but I would prefer to see 2+ non-Town flips before we really go there. Of course, if he's just straight Mafia he's crafted a brilliant defense!

At the start of the day, I was pretty much thinking Jack and/or Koko were Mafia, based on the fact that they not only did not vote for Tofu but actively pushed for a Bluwiikoon lynch. I still think it's possible for Blu to be Mafia, but I think the info they've given so far has been consistent with a particular Town role, and one the Mafia would be happy to make into a lynch scapegoat. To my mind, the most weird thing Blu's done is definitely hand a fakeclaim on a platter, which coud be a totally towny thing or could be a very strange Mafia play. I'm not very swayed by the argument that he also answered one of Tofu's other questions and don't get how him performing an action N0 that was at least not an immediate nighkill.

I was pretty underwhelmed by Jack's roleclaim at first because it's super NAI (MF has definitely done a good job of including those this game, ugh) and if anything badge manipulation seems most useful to the Mafia, who may have limited ability to pass on badges to each other upon dying. However, I'm not sure why he chooses to swap two town players N1 if he's Mafia; if Mafia I'd expect him to be swapping with someone Mafia-aligned to siphon off any badges given out. He does at least seem to have targeted Hydreigon for sure, since he was the first to bring up the paralysis thing, which was corroborated by rari, and I think it's unlikely they're Mafia together. I like his stated logic in voting for Bluwiikoon a bit better, too; Blu's question about whether VM blocks in addition to redirecting was pretty odd, because N0 Blu was the one redirected, and I don't know why he'd have call to believe he'd been blocked at the same time...?

One thing that does bother me a bit is I'm not yet seeing how Kokorico would fit into a team of any sort? Like if rari were mafia I could imagine something like [rari/Ultracool/Bluwiikoon/less active], with some flex in a couple of those slots. With Kokorico I may need to simply read more, but I'm not recalling a great deal of commentary from other people outside of rari and some murmurings from bruh moment at the end of yesterday. Would we just be looking at Kokorico and some combination of the people who haven't posted much? Koko + still Jack + some combo of people who haven't posted much?

If you're voting for Koko, who else do you think is Mafia with em?

--

"living players only" she says

Ah, that's disappointing, but thanks for checking.

--

Negrek - It says in my role PM that yes, if I target a player who has already written a message, they can write a new one

I think being able to use your ability twice on someone might come in handy later; thanks for asking. I think you're right that generally you probably want to spread your ability around as much as possible to get the most use out of it. Rather than the most suspicious people, I think it might be best to target people who you think are likely to be killed, either because they sound like someone the Mafia would want gone or because people generally suspect them but you personally don't... Hopefully that group includes the most people likely to give good info upon dying who are also likely to actually die.

I'm also rather worried by the fact that your badge ability is supposed to tell the role and alignment of somebody dead. Stryke sounds like someone who could end up changing alignment upon death, and a couple of other people have claimed some form of posthumous role, but I don't like the idea that one of the dead Towns could start killing people from beyond the grave.

--

@Zero Moment

Sup. Is there anyone you feel suspicious of or would be inclined to vote for?

 

[rari_teh]

If you're voting for Koko, who else do you think is Mafia with em?

i won’t personally comment on that because obviously one of the people i would cite is the one who is set to die toNight
i encourage this discussion, though

 

[JackPK]

koko ISO

Spoiler: giant pile of NAIs that still felt worth mentioning

a possibility I've not seen mentioned yet: there was no N0 kill because the mafia's nightkill has a badge cost.

koko was the first to suggest this, so it's something to keep in mind, but I think we don't have enough information to determine which faction it indicates (if any). if it's true, it leans towny (mafia has no reason to want to tip town off as to the reason their kill didn't happen, if mafia knows why) but if it's false, it could go either way (town innocently speculating, or mafia trying to casually lead town down the wrong path). we don't know whether it's true or false although I think the general sentiment is that we suspect a cannoneer, in which case it would be sort of true-but-not-the-whole-story?

(wow why did I just write 100+ words to say "NAI")

re: roleclaims, I am a terrorist again, obviously! :D

TMIclaiming? we've seen folks do this both jokingly and "jokingly" in past games. not indicative but perhaps worth noting.

bird jesus
kokorico

flying high
RNP
rari
Jack
Herbe

feathered friends
Ultracool
skytini
VM

altitude undecided
Mawile
Ysabel

roosting for now
Bluwiikoon
Tofu

grounded
zori

*confused chicken noises*
Hydreigon

poast moar
Negrek
Stryke
Zero Moment
myuma

{colors are mine not eirs; yellow for 3p} tierlist quoted for posterity, but in general I don't think there's ever much to glean from looking back at tierlists after their maker flips. town have no insider info and mafia, if they're playing correctly, will have interspersed their teammates randomly throughout so as to avoid giving town any fruitful info if/when they die. still, worth holding onto for posterity's sake.

Spoiler: stuff that's NAI now but might help sort people later

{context: at this time, koko said e was reading zori as potential activated alien}

to be absolutely clear, if the wagons at eod are zori/ultracool i probably would go for zori, assuming nothing comes up between now and then to change my view. it's a risk, sure, and i wanted to make sure it got vetted and didn't just fly under the radar, but i don't think any of the reasons to scumread her are actively wrong

if koko dies and flips mafia, this looks bad for ultracool... if koko is town, though, NAI on ultracool

Very impressed by rari's effortpost on Negrek. On rereading I was thinking some of the same things about her quizzing RNP about his role, so it's good to see that I wasn't just being paranoid. I don't agree that being pro-abstention is necessarily a scumtell for Negrek (though it's true that she would know she was in a position to propose abstention without people considering it a scumtell), but everything else makes sense to me.

another post that might help sort folks? if koko is town, probably NAI all around, but if koko is mafia, this probably suggests Negrek is town?

Of the two of them, I think I'd prefer to vote for Bluwiikoon. Why Blu, and not Tofu? We know, thanks to Mr. Ultracool, that Blu definitely performed an action on N0. Either, as VM says, Blu attempted to target me and was redirected to VM, or less likely, VM is lying/also mafia and Blu targeted him directly. There's any number of things that action could have been, but it happened before any deaths occurred, so it can't possibly have a badge cost. Speaking as the person he (maybe) tried to target with it, I'm not sure I want him to get off another shot.

if koko flips mafia, this pretty well clears blu, and if blu flips mafia, this pretty well clears koko. but if whoever flips first flips green, I don't think this can say anything about the alignment of the other. so they might be v/v, w/v, v/w, but not w/w

I think I'm gonna go reread Tofu's original claim sequence one more time quickly, because we seem to be remembering it slightly differently, but I really don't see how you can say that she "fucked up her roleclaim all by herself". As I recall it, the part people were initially finding odd was that she seemed to be saying she only had one action other than the badge distribution, unlike everyone else; as Negrek pointed out, that isn't really AI in itself. Then she explained that she had misread her role PM and discovered that she had a second action (the badge redistribution), having previously confused it with the after-death badge distribution that everyone gets; again, that's a perfectly understandable mistake. The suspicious part is that she only "discovered" the second action after Blu inexplicably figured out exactly what it was, and then she appeared almost immediately after his post to acknowledge and confirm it, in a way that he'd previously done to several of her posts. I don't really see how that happens without some sort of coordination between them.

{snip}

I think on balance I'm going to switch to Tofu, because I'm not going to be around for EoD, don't know what might happen between now and then, and don't want to risk the possibility of a non-Tofu non-Blu wagon somehow arising. But I'm still not at all convinced by the v!Blu arguments so far.

again, if koko flips mafia this pretty well clears blu, and if blu flips mafia this pretty well clears koko. but again, I do still think v/v is also a possibility here.

Nothing much to say on the nightkills that hasn't already been said. I subscribe to the hypothesis that Herbe was the alien and was offed by he mafia, and it's entirely plausible that someone would have vigged Hydreigon. It occurs to me that if we're correct in those assumptions and about what Hydrei's role was, the vig has been paralysed and will be unable to make a kill tonight. Plan accordingly.

The talk about the deaths is probably NAI, but pointing out the vig potentially being paralyzed is interesting. I thiiiiiiink it leans slightly towny (I can't really picture a world in which mafia finds this useful to publicly point out, but otoh I'm also struggling to picture a world in which mafia finds it useful to keep it hidden) but I'm not confident about that.

What about the town wincon do you think confirms the existence of a mafia faction? Because I'm looking at it now, and I'm not seeing it at all. I suppose it's just about possible that Mampers phrased different people's wincons differently, but that would be an exceptional level of bastardry.

the part that says we win when all scum are dead? scum does mean “independents,” it means mafia. in a town vs independent setup it would likely say “opposing factions” or something instead. idk why we have to question the very basic foundation and semantics of the game every time for no reason tbh.
-q

Oh, good, it does actually say the same thing for you. thank god. big TL on you for that.

reasonably solidly townreading koko in this interaction. it's possible mafia!koko could go out on a limb to argue with someone e knows is a townie about whether the word "mafia" is or isn't used in the exact phrasing of the town wincon (something the townie would surely know better than em!) in hopes of gaining towncred if e isn't immediately proven wrong, but I think that's too reckless to be plausible (though not to be ruled out entirely).

overall I think I am townleaning koko moderately strongly

if I'm wrong and koko is scum, though, I think this ISO indicates scum team would be tofu/koko/ultracool/???, definitely would not include blu, and probably would not include negrek (and, by extension, mawile, since negrek vouches for him).

I have other ISOs I want to do tonight but this post is getting very long and holy fuck it's 1:30am already and I started this before midnight, so here's this one. hopefully i return with More Post soon, if not it's bc I will have fallen asleep

 

[JackPK]

tofu/koko/ultracool/???

sorry, tofu/koko/probably ultracool/???

didn't mean to accidentally imply mafia!koko meant definite mafia!ultracool. just probably.

 

[JackPK]

ZM ISO is almost entirely setup spec so I don't have much to comment on, only questions

{snip} However, I have a third scenario, where Herbe himself was not actually targeted for death. Now, Zori claimed to have a drawback passive, and I'd bet that Herbe did too. Y'see, Neigborizers, Masons, and Cultists—and there's no way to know which Herbe actually was—all tend to have the downside of dying when they try to recruit Mafia members. For reasons I'll likely get into tomorrow, I think this is what killed Herbe, and then Hydrei prob just took the scumkill.

Hmm, I don't think you ever came back and addressed this. Obviously we know now Negrek killed Herbe, but was this just a guess or do you have mechanical info to suggest Herbe was a recruiting role? (Were you yourself recruited? )

{snip} a scum redirector—in fact, I'm almost certain there's one of the latter in this game.

What makes you say that?

oh, Negrek, I forgot to ask yesterDay. Was your oneshot kill mechanically vanilla?

Where are/were you going with this?

 

[JackPK]

Ultracool ISO

{snip, RNP talking about his broadcasting-miller role}

Well, my night action gives me precisely zero info, normally, so I can check that one toNight ^

wait what

how does watcher give you "precisely zero info"? watcher gives like, the most info out of any role short of a full cop or a tracker

Spoiler: String of Tofu/Ultracool quotes early on in D1

Hey uh... Does anyone know when the times of the day and night phases end? Sorry if I missed it somewhere.

Okay well, I just want to say, I didn't block the N0 kill. And I have no badge-costing abilities, but I can choose who to give badges to if I die! I also have a one-shot role (not badge-costy) but I'm going to hold off on saying what it is for now, because, no one else is really claiming. Just, don't give me your badges (if that's even a thing people can do here idk how badge work).

Should we claim? Because I really could claim, meow.

I don't have a problem with claiming because my role isn't super powerful (but I guess potentially could be, once, if I have some information, which I cannot obtain myself). I would be okay with it for me but it makes sense if people are worried about exposing their roles to the mafia members. I think it'd be a nice change of pace to just have everyone claim D1 but don't think we'll get everyone to do that, lol.

don't have a problem with claiming because my role isn't super powerful

Same. Nonetheless, claiming might allow the Mafia to pick between PRs they want gone instead of having to guess...

Anyway, I'll claim because I don't have a problem with people knowing, and it sounds like I wouldn't be a prime target atm:

I think mine like a one-shot ability duplicator: with my photography skills, I can choose a person to copy their action. Then, the next night or day phase (it said night or day? Are there day actions?), I will use that action. It could be useful if I know for sure who I am copying, but could also just fail if people fake roleclaim, so I'm a bit hesitant about it (especially now early game). Like I said, it's only a one-shot as well.

Just for reference in case people missed my other post: when I die, I can give two badges to someone of my choosing.

Well, if you claimed, I'll have to do so too, meow, I guess. I can visit people at night and see who visited them that night. Sadly, I won't see their allegiance or anything beyond who they visited...
That said... Bluwiikoon, would you mind telling meow what action you targeted Vipera Mafnifica with?

(emphasis mine)

is this openwolfing? this feels like an attempt at manufacturing an early-claim trend in hopes townies will be fooled and go along with it

Well, if you claimed, I'll have to do so too, meow, I guess. I can visit people at night and see who visited them that night. Sadly, I won't see their allegiance or anything beyond who they visited...
That said... Bluwiikoon, would you mind telling meow what action you targeted Vipera Mafnifica with?

Bwuh? I didn't even target VM!

Do we happen to have... a bus driver...!?

For the record, I'd like to stay quiet about my power for now ^^

Did you by any chance happen to target kokorico?

I sure did! ^^

this interaction pretty well confirms Ultracool's role as watcher but doesn't confirm his alignment

That said... Bluwiikoon, would you mind telling meow what action you targeted Vipera Mafnifica with?

Why were you so interested in the action that dear Blu used to target me? It seems a bit forward to ask him to claim his role so soon.

VM has a point

where the fuck is stryke

Meow about we lynch an inactive player for lack of a better option?
Stryke

I said this then and I'll say it again now, suggesting an inactive yeet at only 15 hours into D1 is not pro-town (also, if Ultracool dies and flips mafia, this probably clears Stryke? at least until/unless Stryke gets an alignment change when he dies and gets his powers, if he's telling the truth about that)

still rubs me the wrong way i say we put a watcher on tofu

@Mr. Ultracool Are you down for this? ^^

Meowell, either that or the Earthbadgecopplan would be fine by meow

shaking my damn head. went out of his way to do the convoluted plan nobody understood or liked instead of following in-thread suggestions to watch the person everyone sussed who later turned out to be mafia.

could be the actions of an overthinking townie but there's also a glaring likelihood he was trying to deflect from having to watch his scummate

@Mr. Ultracool , what was your result last night?

As it turns meowth, I'm an idiot and submeowting an action completely slipped my meownd...

and then there's this

I don't like this at all

placing my vote on Mr. Ultracool for the time being

 

[JackPK]

Ysabel ISO is almost entirely full of measured, neutral posts that are not strong indicators in either direction as far as I can tell

hhh I already made the mistake of {bussing sheeping} mewtini once and still think that tofu being mafia doesn't make sense. Like sure, there's been the inconsistencies but does that make her scum for sure? There's still time to discuss this.. no need to be rash. Also tofu as mafia would implicate a number of people which doesn't make that much sense? Don't know why mafia would try that hard to lynch her but maybe they think she could be a big threat if she used her ability right, kind of like how Mistyx ended up being such a help with her own ability in ooc.

if Ysabel is mafia her repeated defenses of Tofu look bad, but taken holistically with Ysabel's other posts it feels equally much like townie trying to be careful? idk

(to avoid confusion, I fixed bussing -> sheeping based on her later comments)

Also tofu as mafia would implicate a number of people which doesn't make that much sense?

what do you mean?

well, just thining on if tofu is mafia then who could be her team. As I see it, blu for the reasons already mentioned, how he tried to help her out. It also possibly implicates VM for also defending her or maybe not outright defending but not considering the possibility that she may be maf? And possibly rari for the defense (and tbf the seeming flailing. Which sorry rari but it doesn't look too good :( )

if Ysabel is mafia this may indicate Blu and rari are town?

I got nothing except those if->thens and a generalized vibe of "careful townie" that I can't point to any one particular post to explain my vibe

tentatively putting Ysabel in my townie pile for now

 

[JackPK]

ok it is 3:45 am and I have ISOed everyone I didn't have a read on. here's my tierlist:

me
JackPK

strong townleaning
myuma - claim is easily provable and imo not plausible on scum. as soon as someone who's supposed to have made a will dies, we will know whether she's telling the truth
Negrek
Mawile - via Negrek's inspection

moderately townleaning
Ysabel
kokorico

don't know what to think
Zero Moment - no thoughts posts empty
rari - has been giving me slightly scummy vibes for two days now AND YET her claim explains everything satisfactorily. gotta ISO her sometime later when it's not 3:45 am and I'm not exhausted

slight scumlean
Bluwiikoon

strong scumleaning
Mr. Ultracool

don't yeet, corpse might turn evil
Stryke



I'm thinking scumteam could be Tofu/Ultracool/{Bluwii if I'm right, koko if I'm wrong}/{rari or ZM}?????

 

[qenya]

if i’m not mistaken, your scumtell is being confident. it’s not like you’re not paranoid as wolf – you sure are –, but as town you tend to flail a lot and be very self-assured when it comes to your alignment. as soon as people put you low on their tierlists, i bet that you as town would at the very least question them. but you didn’t. then toDay, when i cast my vote on you without longposting, if you were town, i’d be damned if you wouldn’t go after me. but you all but pretended you weren’t being a candidate for lynching

Got it. For what it's worth, I didn't ask you about your scumlean on me because you'd already explained why you were holding it: you'd found some stuff in my tone that you thought was incriminating, and you said you'd go into more detail before the end of the Day, which you've now done. I didn't really see any point in questioning you before then. I think the only other person who's put me low on a tierlist is Ysabel, which seemed to me to be just sheeping the stronger player if she's town / jumping on a realistically possible misyeet if she's a wolf. (And skytini I guess, but she was also upfront about it being based on tone, and died before anyone could ask her to elaborate.) And more generally, I learn less from asking about people's reads on me than from asking about their reads on other people, since I already know my own alignment and can't perform an association read on myself.

Now that you've made your longpost, I can't say it makes me feel very differently about you; perhaps a little better. What you've said is understandable and I can follow your thought process, even though I know you're wrong, so I'm inclined to read it more as genuine misdirected tunnelling (something I can entirely empathise with!) than an opportunistic push at a misyeet. It seems that a lot of it is derived either from inadvertent misinterpretations of what I was trying to say, or preëxisting disagreements between us, mostly about Blu's alignment. For example: "koko seems to think that the very fact that blu has a night action and tried to target em at a previous Night should imply that he is mafia". Not what I was trying to get at; I already believed Blu was mafia, for unrelated reasons that I'd outlined earlier that Day, and was talking about which of him and Tofu would be the more useful yeet.

I think it would be a waste both of my time and of yours to go through the rest of your post point-by-point, but if you have something specific to ask about then I'm at your disposal.