Suggestion Box

[nastypass]

So, a minor bit of discussion has recently come up on the matter of whether single-action uses of two-turn moves, with the due energy penalty, should come out at a low priority. Seems that some refs do this, but not everyone's aware; as it's a matter that can really trip up a trainer that wasn't aware, there should be an all-encompassing agreement on whether this happens or not. If we make it official, I'll go ahead and edit the two-turn moves' pages to mention it, so there'll hopefully not be any confusion.

In any case, the discussion is on. As far as I can tell people are generally in favour of the idea, provided that it doesn't come out of nonwhere to trip anyone up. In any case, please go ahead if you have anything in particular to say for or against the matter.

(For added reference, this has been briefly discussed in the A&A guide before, although Negrek herself didn't give the conclusions any direct say-so)

i'd prefer that this be left as a referee quirk, given there's no sort of ingame precedent for it and i was totally unaware that it was even a thing until eifie mentioned it. regardless, there oughta be some sort of surgeon general's warning that some refs do so on the move pages, if this is in fact as common as eifie says.

 

[Wargle]

I feel like if this was a referee quirk it could cause some confusion, especially since it could affect how battles turn out

 

[Lord of the Fireflies]

Yeah, I agree with Wargle that it's game breaking enough not to let it stay that way. Imo, I don't get why two-turn moves can be used in one action in the first place, but to have them have low priority is a fair enough trade-off (in addition to the extra 3% energy, that is).

 

[Superbird]

tbh I usually make them move second flavor-wise, although the bulk of the time whether they move first or second doesn't matter that much.

And anyway, the issue more on my mind is whether or not people should be able to use one-action Hyper Beams and Sky Attacks on back-to-back actions; it seems a little bit strange to me that pokémon can use three Hyper Beams, which are supposed to be incredibly draining attacks, one after another without some sort of energy penalty other than the one-action one. I've been considering adding even more extra energy to such repeated uses - maybe the second one costs 1% extra and the third in a row costs 2% more?

 

[Wargle]

I actually never understood one-turn Hyper Beam at all. Moves that need to charge like Solar Beam I can see being one-turned for an energy penalty, but something like Blast Burn that's so powerful it causes the user to need to use an action to gain its breath per se being shortened? Doesn't make as much sense to me

 

[Byrus]

Is there much reason for attacks like dragon tail and roar to keep their negative priority from the games? Their effects in ASB are still really vague.

 

[Eifie]

I've mentioned this before, but can we make Gyro Ball use the same formula as in the games? Right now it doesn't even account for Speed boosts or drops, but regardless, I don't think I really need to convince anyone that it's... pretty bad.

For reference, the current formula is 25 BP if the user is faster than the target, target's base Speed - user's base Speed otherwise (so a slightly slower Pokémon will get less than 25 BP...), and the formula in the games is 1 + 25 * target's current speed / user's current speed.

(MF plz just give me the okay so I can change it, thanks)

 

[M&F]

Right, that'd be a reasonable change, although we can really do away with the additional one at the beginning because that'd be, like, 0.1%'s worth in damage. Also, I'd prefer that Speed boosts be factored into this by a standardized and indirect means as otherwise it'd swing too much between different referees (something like 1% more base damage per 1+ Speed the target has over the user sound good?).

(Either way changing the rules quickly is no good, so you can have your okay later.)

also wow there is a lot of stuff I've been needing to address, sorry folks, I'll try to get to that sometime soon

 

[Eifie]

(Either way changing the rules quickly is no good, so you can have your okay later.)

But I brought this up several months ago, we just never did it :(

 

[Zero Moment]

I think it'd be interesting if Taunt would keep a Pokemon from waiting before using a move.

 

[Sandstone-Shadow]

Is it possible to list battles a Pokemon has been a part of on their individual page? Kind of a combination of a trainer's battle list, and the party highlights for what Pokemon were used on the battle page?

 

[Stryke]

I think it would be nice for metal coat to have an effect similar to the silk scarf, black glasses, and everything else in that category, so it boosts steel type moves final damage by 2%, but still keeping it in the evolution items category. It's not that fair that steel type doesn't get an item like that, and it's current use seems a bit situational.

 

[M&F]

So, we've had a major backlog here since... ever, and I've been working on obliterating it. I can't do much about the DB suggestions, but for everything else, I've been trying to put together a set of immediate changes. I'll be establishing each of those changes a week from now -- might be a little abrupt considering how suddenly I'm putting this forth, but I'll hold off on anything on the list that catches any controversy, so if you have an issue with any of the changes, you just need to say the word. And, of course, once a change is done, it still can always be undone or redone later if further discussion warrants it.

This is what I've got (but feel free to point out anything that you feel has been missed):

• Aqua Rings will become stationary, such that the user must remain in place to gain its benefits. This will make it very similar to Ingrain, but with just enough strategical differences.
• I'll go ahead and put a note on all the charging (Solar Beam, etc.) and recharging (Hyper Beam, etc.) moves that some referees handle their single-action variant as having lower priority or going last within the priority bracket. Anybody who would like to argue for making that effect all-encompassing is welcome to, however.
• Contrary will spend 2% of the user's energy per stat change it reverses (i.e., gaining Defense from being Leer'd will cost 2%, gaining Special Attack from using Leaf Storm will cost 4%). This should make the ability harder for the user to abuse, plus it may add some strategic possibilities for the opponent as well.
• Gyro Ball's base power, as in the games, will be 25 times the ratio of the target Pokémon's base speed and the user's base speed, up to a maximum of 150. Speed changes either way won't be accounted for directly, but each 1+ Speed on the target or 1- Speed on the user will be an additional 10 to the base power (1% to the base damage), and conversely, each 1- Speed on the target or 1+ Speed on the user will lower Gyro Ball's BP by 10.
• Moves that force switches in the games (Roar, Dragon Tail, etc.) will have normal priority and, as currently is, won't force switches even in Switch-style battles. Feel free to rev up discussion on whether their effects should be kept as is or made more specific (and feel free to add Eject Button to that conversation too), but for now I'll just change the priority, since it makes the current effects somewhere between "annoying to implement" and "nigh on unusable".
• Oran Berries will restore 10% health when consumed, and Sitrus Berries will restore one-quarter of the HP the user has lost when consumed, rounded down. If anyone has good ideas for whether the Sitrus Berry's natural consumption threshold should be changed to reflect this change, go ahead, although I'd recommend avoiding strange numbers even if they make sense mathematically; unless there's a really worthwhile stroke of brillance out there, it should be fine to keep it to 25%, 33%, or the current 50%, as is with other berries.
• Rage will be matched to its in-game effect as of Gen V and just grant Attack boosts if the user is struck between using Rage and their next move. We can delve deeper into discussion as to whether it should be a regular, permanent boost or not, but I'd like to get at least just this much done.

And while I'm at it, I'll raise some points of discussion that haven't yet warranted energic action:

• If anybody would like to keep the suggestions coming on making Choice items more usable, they're welcome to.
• Hustle and Truant haven't been changed, although there's been discussion on making them more effective abilities. I don't think any of the suggested measures on that front has gained much traction yet, though, besides talk of whether it's absolutely necessary to change them much from their current ideations.
• Following up on the discussion about whether weather moves should work by default, even in indoors arenas, unless the arena explicitly says they wouldn't work: should we turn that motion into an official rule encompassing all moves, even things like Surf and Rock Slide? (in those cases, the default would be summoning the necessary elements out of thin air unless the arena obviously includes those elements, specifically sets aside some means to provide them, or outright says the moves can't be used) And for that matter, should the same apply to using fish Pokémon in arenas without water and/or allowing them to freely move out of the water in such arenas?

 

[M&F]

• Aqua Rings will become stationary, such that the user must remain in place to gain its benefits. This will make it very similar to Ingrain, but with just enough strategical differences.
• I'll go ahead and put a note on all the charging (Solar Beam, etc.) and recharging (Hyper Beam, etc.) moves that some referees handle their single-action variant as having lower priority or going last within the priority bracket. Anybody who would like to argue for making that effect all-encompassing is welcome to, however.
• Contrary will spend 2% of the user's energy per stat change it reverses (i.e., gaining Defense from being Leer'd will cost 2%, gaining Special Attack from using Leaf Storm will cost 4%). This should make the ability harder for the user to abuse, plus it may add some strategic possibilities for the opponent as well.
• Gyro Ball's base power, as in the games, will be 25 times the ratio of the target Pokémon's base speed and the user's base speed, up to a maximum of 150. Speed changes either way won't be accounted for directly, but each 1+ Speed on the target or 1- Speed on the user will be an additional 10 to the base power (1% to the base damage), and conversely, each 1- Speed on the target or 1+ Speed on the user will lower Gyro Ball's BP by 10.
• Moves that force switches in the games (Roar, Dragon Tail, etc.) will have normal priority and, as currently is, won't force switches even in Switch-style battles. Feel free to rev up discussion on whether their effects should be kept as is or made more specific (and feel free to add Eject Button to that conversation too), but for now I'll just change the priority, since it makes the current effects somewhere between "annoying to implement" and "nigh on unusable".
• Oran Berries will restore 10% health when consumed, and Sitrus Berries will restore one-quarter of the HP the user has lost when consumed, rounded down. If anyone has good ideas for whether the Sitrus Berry's natural consumption threshold should be changed to reflect this change, go ahead, although I'd recommend avoiding strange numbers even if they make sense mathematically; unless there's a really worthwhile stroke of brillance out there, it should be fine to keep it to 25%, 33%, or the current 50%, as is with other berries.
• Rage will be matched to its in-game effect as of Gen V and just grant Attack boosts if the user is struck between using Rage and their next move. We can delve deeper into discussion as to whether it should be a regular, permanent boost or not, but I'd like to get at least just this much done.

It's been a week, so all of these have been enacted. Anyone who has objections to any of them is still free to discuss, though.

 

[I liek Squirtles]

Sorry, couldn't be on for the past week. MUN conference.

Couple questions:

Would the opponent be able to take advantage of Aqua Ring?
Would negative stat reverses (eg Swagger on a Contrary Snivy) also cost 2% energy?

 

[M&F]

Would the opponent be able to take advantage of Aqua Ring?
Would negative stat reverses (eg Swagger on a Contrary Snivy) also cost 2% energy?

Yes and yes.

 

[Zhorken]

I've been meaning to mention this for a while but I'm reluctant to start changing any numbers that are ripped directly from the games (including priority) because I don't want to have to handle all these edge cases when they inevitably change a bunch of the numbers in Sun/Moon (and also, in some small part, because I'm a nerd and I like having all these neat-and-tidy correct numbers). I guess it wouldn't be that bad if it was only a couple but I'd still rather find an excuse to keep the priority.

Like, maybe we could write the switching effect as the primary effect, and then go "alternatively you can use this move for _____, in which case it has neutral priority"? Or we could hammer down the current effect and say that the target is guaranteed to be knocked far enough away that they can't hit you with contact moves on the next action — that way they're more or less on par with Fake Out, I think? More damage, but can only interfere with certain moves (and the move they mess with is in a different action but that's neither here nor there). Or something.

I love all the other changes; I'm really glad you found a way to make the Oran Berry not redundant because that's been bothering me since forever.

 

[Superbird]

Like, maybe we could write the switching effect as the primary effect, and then go "alternatively you can use this move for _____, in which case it has neutral priority"? Or we could hammer down the current effect and say that the target is guaranteed to be knocked far enough away that they can't hit you with contact moves on the next action — that way they're more or less on par with Fake Out, I think? More damage, but can only interfere with certain moves (and the move they mess with is in a different action but that's neither here nor there). Or something.

I love all the other changes; I'm really glad you found a way to make the Oran Berry not redundant because that's been bothering me since forever.

With the way our switching works, I think it would be most logical to just turn them into "retreating moves" with more of a tactical emphasis. U-Turn and Volt Switch, then, have the effect of "hit the opponent, and retreat a reasonable distance". This distance wouldn't necessarily be uncloseable, especially for a fast pokémon or one whose mobility has been enhanced somehow, but it has tactical advantages even if that is the case.

 

[Eifie]

Hustle and Truant haven't been changed, although there's been discussion on making them more effective abilities. I don't think any of the suggested measures on that front has gained much traction yet, though, besides talk of whether it's absolutely necessary to change them much from their current ideations.

I seem to recall 1.2x damage for 0.9x accuracy being a pretty popular option for Hustle. Anyone have any other thoughts?

 

[RNP]

There should be an ASB Secret Santa next year.